Community Newsletter: Q&A: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use?
- 3/23/07 12:14 PM
Music Industry and where's the money...
by sbmunn - 3/16/07 8:13 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I am very unsure of the music industries numbers of losses. Years ago, with vinyl records and cassetes, I must have bought 2 or three copies of my most played ones as they were poor media. Did the record companies offer me a discount, a refund or a replacement. No they just collected another sale and got an extra polish on thier BMW. Now that most people purchace one cd and not three or four they complain sales are down. CD's were supposed to be cheaper, what 3000% profit not enough. If these were priced reasonably maybe your sales would be up, and now complaining of people paying to download just a single off the album for 1.00 hurts as the artists other songs are not listend too. You shut down napster and others and still claim to be loosing billions of dollars? We should crack down on copyright infringement by closing library's, all those books availiable to anyone to read, Do you know how many kids probably borrowed The Cat in the Hat too read for Free. The Radio stations that play these copywrited songs, should be shut down as I would be listening to these songs for Free. The last time I checked downloading a music clip for a cell phone ring tone was up too 3.00 and every company is reporting billions of dollars in PROFIT so isnt the real person being robbed here The Consumer.
to sum it all up......
by godofguns1718 - 3/16/07 8:25 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I have read most of the thread and have noticed people saying the same thing left and right.
theres a couple points i wish to make
1.limewire cant be stopped.the system it uses is not a central server,so the riaa cant do spitty squat.
2.yes LIMEWIRE is legal.but if you download something on it that is copyrighted, techncally its illegal.but most downloads on limewire are checked by white hat hackers for piggyback files from the riaa. so yep your probaly not going to get caught.....ive been useing it for various years....
3.yes i feel your pain artists.....but you have no choice. welcome to reality. noone under 21 buys music,and thats a big market indeed.
4.virusus on limewire? yes but few compared to some other p2p services......ive NEVER gotten a virus off of limewire.
5.The riaa should just give up.....and so should the music indrustry.....theyre fighting a losing battle.atough its not completely lost,it would be to timetaking to find each and every single person who has downloaded illegal music.
6.this thread has become a constant repetetion of the same things over and over and over.someone bring something fresh to the debate....please
7.yes 99 cents per song is too much.i have a huge libary that would probaly amount to lik 30k if i paid.....it riduculas.dont get me wrong,not everyone needs so much music,but songs can amount to a huge expense at that price,ik from experience 
8.riping off music is old.lots of people have done it,and they havent paid squat
9.dont say that the artists are pissed about this......big timers barely even get paid the amount they make.its the old fat guys in the suits getting angry.cause there pockets arent ripe enough yet.
10. so in finallity,limewire is a tool(kinda like a knife)which can be used in various ways (to kill,to help,to defend.so thats my side of the argument
How about libraries?
by drstove - 3/16/07 8:46 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I've read the endless debate as to whether or not using a program such as LimeWire is legal. Let me throw this into the mix. Why isn't it illegal to go to the library, borrow a CD or DVD and use it, then return it? Do those who feel they are "stealing" from an artist by downloading a copy of the movie using LimeWire, also feel they are "stealing" if they borrow a copy from the library and view it? Frankly, I don't see a lot of difference. You get to see the movie, which you may well be satisfied in only watching once, and either way the artist doesn't get paid. So should we do away with libraries also? I'm not advocating the use of LimeWire to watch a movie you didn't pay for, I am asking why it is okay if I get the movie from the library and do the same thing? Some are going to answer by saying I returned the copy to the library after I was finished with it. That still doesn't change the fact that I got to see the movie for free.
ahem
by joyce36_ca - 3/22/07 3:44 PM In reply to: How about libraries? by drstoveKey word in your post: BORROW.
Think about it.
No and No!
by eightkidscrazy - 3/16/07 8:57 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Brandy, Check out the website www.legal-download-advisor.com
This site is all about your question.
They will answer your question just as many others in this forum have and help you find some good, legal sites for music downloads.
P2P
by mendozil - 3/16/07 9:18 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
The problem is that this is the issue of the freedom that the internet brings to each and everyone of us. This world-wide web connects us all and there are other bigger tings out there that are also worrisome, like posting a step by step procedure on how to maka a bomb...any bomb. Be it a pipe bomb or one with a timer or even a nuclear bomb. and so with the right materials you can make one. Even a kid can make one. Or how about the description of the date-rape drug, which i won't say, and how to use it. These dangerous things are ALL in the net and can be accessed or "Googled" or thru the WIKI.
All you have to do is type anything in search and it's all there...to be used for good or bad. That's the kind of freedom that the internet has given us. Plus of course the proliferation of copying programs. I understand that there are people or artists that will be affected by this, but that is because there is so much freedom that has been given to people that it has gotten out of hand.
In the past, same sex marriage was a no-no, it was not done, but "rights" and "freedom" activists have successfully lobbied this and voila, it's now "ok" or accepted, but at the same time you can not stop another person to say you are living in sin or are commiting an immoral act with such an "un-natural" relationship. You want freedom of expression? This is what you get.
Case in point, hypothetically, say i am looking for a particular Japanese anime (cartoon) series, but the only ones available for sale legally are all in Japanese with no english subtitles. Then along comes a fan who translates the dialogue and adds a subtitle to the movie. Subsequently he/ she posts it over the internet for her friends in say Indonesia to enjoy, free of charge, he/ she does not make anything from it, just shares it, coz there is no anime made with subtitles, unless it is brought to America, then it is copyrighted and then it is not available for download in P2P anymore (yes, that happens coz it's already owned by another company who syndicated it). The Japanese anime company only intended for the cartoon to be broadcast in Japan and did not consider other countries. But when fan-subs (those fans who translate the episodes) have inadvertently made a series popular worldwide, again thanks to the internet through P2P sharing, and gains syndication via big business who wants to make money from this in other countries then actually the big businesses are happy coz they didn't think that a particular anime is good, they end up using the P2P as a gauge on which programs to syndicate, based on popularity of the programs being downloaded. It's illegal when big business doesn't make money from it. For an unpopular Japanese cartoon series that doesn't have a popular worlwide or even local following, does anybody, even the Japanese company that made it go after the fan-subs? No. It's not worth it. That's all it is. The thing is they don't put subtitles to all their programs coz they don't want the added expense. They don't even bother to market it abraod (coz international marketing is expensive) meaning they don't care about sales to other countries in the first place, just Japan sales. So a fan who translates the series for no financial gain can do so and share it with her friends near and far. It's "illegal" when a series becomes popular and they want to make money from it, if it's small, they don't care. It's hard to generalize in this case. The anime "talents" (cartoonists and Japanese voice actors) were paid their wages fairly. They don't get money from syndication. So the artist was not "robbed" of earnings. In the same light, a popular singer in America, or any country for that matter has a problem, coz album sales will be down and they lose out from pirated copes, that's bad. But a struggling singer sometimes gains popularity by the same avenue, so that's good. Yes? No? Kinda? If you lose potential earnings from it, it's illegal, if you bacome popular, it's not.
The thing is that if you want to stop this form of piracy, then you touch someone's freedom to do something. Hypothetically, if i want to copy a song or CD at home as a back-up, coz i don't want my original CD scratched, can you stop me? No. I'm free to do as i wish. It's mine, i bought it. it's "ok". The blank recordable CDs are available in the market, so then maybe these big businesses are also part of it cause they are giving us the tools to do so. The thing is that governments have allowed businesses to create these things (cassete tapes, CDs, recorders) to be made available to the public for these companies (and the governments via taxes) to make money, then hope and pray that it is used for good only....yeah, right. Maybe it should have started there. They should have made CD's available for playback and not recording. They shouldn't have provided the public the CD writers and DVD writers in the first place then. Or maybe they shouldn't have made USB flash memory available to the public which blossomed into the various MP3 players and iPods that are so "accepted" today. The problem is if big business is allowed to continue to give the people these things coz companies are FREE TO DO SO, then maybe governments around the world should also put an end to their businesses? Let's just shut down the internet, then, right? Can you? No. That's freedom. Good AND bad too.
There are so much more examples of how the abuse of freedom given to us is no longer good. If you touch one thing, you will have to touch other aspects of our lives. You want to be moral? Ok, then let's be prepared for the consequences. You can't be moral about just one thing, it has to be everything. Child labor, cheap Chinese labor to make goods for the world and make billions of dollars of extra profits for big companies. Why not make American products in America?...answer: lower profits coz labor is expensive in America. So pay someone very, very, very, very, very cheap in China to make more profits for the big companies, making a lot of people jobless in American Factories. Why settle for millions in profit when you can make billions by making it in China? Moral? Morality in this case is dollar driven. The music industry, is just one aspect. Want to be moral? Then let's fix everything, not just what suits us.
Sure Its Illegal
by retiredat532002 - 3/16/07 9:55 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
But what are they gonna do, arrest 5 million people? The police don't have enough officers to mess with it, the courts don't have enough judges to hear all the cases, and the jails don't have enough cells to hold all the "big bad hardened copyright criminals". Its a lot like prohibition. You now see after all the people who got prosecuted, imprisoned,killed, etc. during prohibition days, that alcohol is now perfectly legal??????? This problem is way too far gone for law enforcement to even waste their time trying to contain it. They simply turn a blind eye to it. You can't lock up an entire nation!!!!!! The more people that use it, the safer it makes it to use. Just don't get carried away with it. I would think that those that use it too outrageously heavy draw attention to themselves, and if there is anyone they would actually go after it would be the heaviest users. If you burn a cd now and then, you are no different than millions of people nationwide doing the same thing. These artists make countless million even with the P2P in use. So don't start crying uncontrollably and sit around brokenhearted for these people just yet. They're all multi-millionaires and you don't see them worried too much about it. So why should the government be? The artists have money coming out their ears and too busy living lavish lifestyles and buying bling bling and nose candy to worry about you burning a couple of their songs on a cd!
Instances when it is perfectly legal--and new laws
by jmdenison - 3/16/07 10:29 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Many times (how many times) have you bought a DVD or CD and found out it no longer works. So you send it back and just get gruff from the manufacturer telling you to buy another when you already bought one, you own a license for one copy and then the darned thing gets broken, scratched or whatever.
File sharing services a perfect for those instances. I have 4 kids and I can't tell you how many times the kids have broken, scratched up or lost a CD or DVD. It drives me crazy.
So I'm very happy about the file sharing websites out there. There's nothing illegal about obtaining a working copy of something that has been copyrighted that you broke, won't work or is lost but purchased from a store. Keep your receipts from Walmart, ebay or whatever in case you have to prove you own it, but I'm very happy using Limewire. I've been able to recapture many CDs that I've lost or broken. As long as you own an original, a back up copy is okay to use. The only people who get in trouble are people that download thousands of songs and who could never substantiate receipts. But if you only have a few dozen or so songs and you have most of the receipts, I see no way any of the license enforcement groups can get you. CD's on ebay are often very cheap and they can contain about 95% of the big hits of any particular artist anyway.
But the reality of copyright laws is that they simply haven't kept up with technology. I see no difference between paying musicians a small fee for their works for an additional recording via a "mechanical license" wherein the fee is small and set by statute, to old copyrighted works where the fee is small and set and limewire.
Congress needs to get us something better. Perhpas a per-Gig MP3 or MP4 license where you pay $10 per year into a general fund that benefits all the major licensing groups. You get a little sticker for your player to show you licensed it legally.
That would work. The govt needs to get their butt in gear on this one. Suing college and high school kids for copyright infringement is pretty lame IMO.
my first time to respond U Lee
by jieinbeijing - 3/16/07 11:34 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Let me respond 1cent to your 2 cents Lee, Under the umbrela of democracy and freedom, legitimate or illegitimate is just shaped contextually.Limewire as all other technique,products(including cultural products) tend to be considered shared civilizations,none like to be covered,that's the sense of socially human beings.judgements of fairness should not only be based on money to pay or not, also comprise power(not politically). power exist inside everybody.any capability and time you pay.like this discussion you organized. if u dont do it, others dont do it, the society wont go.copyright is contextually too. legitimate cases alway have been involved with language play.language is nothing but signs.we have music from Limewire for entertainment,not comercially use.we dont steal from places where we r asked to pay. it can be different the same thing in different contexts..hehee this reminds me many examples.it's easy to provoke everyone many in reality in fact.~~ U can do many things privately but not socially..SO just enjoy the freedom in free sites. do it in the right places.
Is peer- to- peer software such as Limewire legal ...
by meta_rabbit - 3/17/07 12:14 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that your more afraid of the consequence of downloading rather than the it's legality.The safety of this issue shouldn't be an issue. It is illegal to take what is not yours. It is morally wrong to ask if it is right. Just because an individual can get away with an illegal act doesn't make it legal.I'm sure if you looked into your heart of hearts you could answer your own question. The only safe issue is the right decision.....meta_rabbit.
Its up to you
by snerk - 3/17/07 12:33 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Brandy,
One really does not need to write a long post to answer your questions.
1) It is illegal to download copyrighted material from the internet without paying for it. Period. There is no gray area here. Its like taking your neighbor's dog because you though it was cute. Its wrong.
2) There are many POS kids out there encoding their shared files with Trojans, etc. So, it really is not safe to use Limewire either. Unless you have great Antivirus or you know how to avoid those loser's bad files.
What is moral and legal?
by wjlam - 3/17/07 1:14 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
You,(and that includes all of you that care to give an answer)are kindly requested to define.
Example:
1.Is it moral to copy or download a disc long lost,gone,uncharted,non existent for buying ?
2.Is it legal to own a disc with the
aforementioned "qualifications",knowing the rare nature of the beast,and set up an operation to print and sell it, for say $ 30 to $40 or Euros,and get legal taxable monies?
Will you please be kind and think for yourself,about it ,and let me know if you care.
W.
It' should be a marketing tool if promoted properly.
by pj-mckay - 3/17/07 1:31 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Yes it's mostly 'illegal' in essence, at present. I've used p2p countless times to get software that I think will do a wee job. Who in there right mind would spend £100 on 6 versions of software just to find out it's all rubbish? So long as it generates good sales where's the problem? And don't tell me to use tied down trial versions..... it's not the same product features and an invalid argument!
As for itunes and S.Jobs. They're supplying music that has limited use, no physical hardware, and costs practically as much as an overpriced CD. Duped or what? I'd rether buy a cd than be tied to that deal. Sheep, morons, ripped-off, great products but total hype and a fantastic cash-cow for Apple. Cassettes saved Philips in the 70s, iTunes saved Apple now, but at least Casssettes were based on openness.
Lets be totally serious here. This market has totally ballooned out of control due to the totally overpricing of CDs. A blockbuster DVD that costs millions of dollars sells for $20; some two-bit CD with two decent tracks and they want $15. This is a no brainer. Get CDs to a decent price $6 say, sales will rocket and p2p will fade away into legitimate use! Anyone who thinks a record company/chain is entitled to >$10 profit is off their head and assisting the monopolisation of the industry.
It has nothing to do with artists being bereft of royalties.... compare Paul McCartneys .01 with the record companies share. Total no brainer.
Use limewire responsibly.... and buy the good stuff, that you appreciate, legitimately once you're convinced it's worth paying for!
Just like the tape recording songs from the (free) airwaves.
by merdrr - 3/17/07 2:34 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
...or so I thought before I recieved this.
I don't really get it. There was a time that if you wanted to hear a song when you were not at home, you could record it on cassette (whether from the radio, commercial tape, or record), put it in your walkman & go OUTSIDE with your music.
When did that concept change?
I don't think that artists from the past were caring, what is the big deal now.
I did not see using Limewire, or Morpheus (which I actually paid the subscription until I installed Vista)or any other such service as being a crime if you are only going to "record the music, put it in you (portable music device) & go OUTSIDE with your music".
What about services like Yahoo music box, or Urge.com, that are competitors with Apple, and do not allow you to download the music that you have purchased (via their subscription packages), but you paid for it.
I believe in being honest - so if using Limewire, etc..is illegal, I will delete it from my system. If honesty is really the question, than either iTunes needs to have some "frequent buyer miles", or other music services need to be a little more flexible with their download policies. That is the REAL reason people use the P2P hosts for their music. After spending $149.00 or more on an iPod, more $ on paid subscription services that are compatible with every port music device EXCEPT iPods, no one that I know will run and buy a Zune (another $250.00) just to "take music OUTSIDE..." - no..most will get music on their players anyway they can.
If legality is what they want, then they need to stop "fighting" with each other, and allow the consumer to have real legal choices.
the concept changed
by ktreb - 3/18/07 1:12 PM In reply to: Just like the tape recording songs from the (free) airwaves. by merdrrwhen the recording media changed. Recording on cassette tapes off of radio, commercial tape, record, even cd is hardly the same as downloading digital files. Quality isn't the same. Home recorded cassette tapes are nowhere in the league of the quality found in downloaded music. In many of my tapes, I can hear hissing and even the "pop" noise made when I turned off my recorder. And you're recording in real time - if an album is an hour long, you're recording for an hour. And then you'll have to turn over the album (if it's vinyl) and possibly the cassette. It's time consuming. If I want to make 10 copies for my friends, then I'll be spending 10 hours doing it. It takes no time at all to download an album, unless you have dial up. And it takes no time at all to share it with your friends and they share it with their friends, and so on. From one download, you can potentially end up sharing with thousands, whether you meant to or not. And that is the big deal.
Limewire itself is not illegal. There are legal and legitimate uses. You want to share music you wrote and recorded or your home movies. But sharing copyrighted materials without the permission of the owner is not legal. Merely buying or subscribing to the software does not grant permission. Limewire and such are not licensed distributors of music and movies. Even Limewire has a disclaimer on their website that states that they "do not encourage or condone the illegal copying of copyrighted material." Limewire is trying to cover its butt. But it is getting sued by the major record labels. Even Kazaa, another file sharing service, agreed to pay $100 million to settle a similar lawsuit. And the RIAA (the Recording Industy Association of America, which represents the major record labels) are suing individuals.
Most users will probably never get sued. They are just too many out there. But those who do will get burned. Most settle out of court, paying anywhere from a few thousand to $10,000 or more. And you'll never know who will be next....
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