Spyware, viruses, & security : What is the the best free anti-spyware program?
a few corrections
by santuccie - 2/7/07 9:08 AM In reply to: different users, different needs by wakedaddy335'The more attention a specific program receives, the more the manufacturer is likely to make it a better program.' Not necessarily. I've discussed this issue regarding firewalls in another thread. Vendors know that consumers in general are not that savvy; the only yardstick average users have is features. So, vendors that target the consumer market will add a bunch of "fluff" to their product. Corporations, on the other hand, hire seasoned professionals to make decisions for them, and they will go with something a bit more effective. Take firewalls for instance: The only time you will ever see ZoneAlarm in a business setting is if there is a hardware firewall in front of it. 
'(over 200 million users worldwide)." Doesn't that tell you something?' It sure does. It tells me "good advertising." Ad-Aware is still good for basic grayware (non-destructive spyware), but my word still stands. Ad-Aware cannot detect or remove a polymorphic Trojan. And that's just one example for you of what it cannot do.
'I'm not saying the three (3) programs I use and the ultimate best, but they are sufficient and efficient.' I wish you would have made that clear earlier. I'll tell you this much: I have a WiFi router, and live in the back of a cul-de-sac with four or five other WiFi networks in range of my own. When SQL Slammer and Stack Bot variants, carrying IRC Flood and other nasties, flooded the Internet in October, our network's WPA2 encryption was cracked every time I changed it, and my grandma's machine (which didn't have a software SPI firewall) was basically violated by our neighbors' infected machines. I had to install Safety.Net to make the unsolicited intrusions stop.
And that still doesn't stop people from visiting hostile sites and being infected in drive-by downloads. I have a friend who used to live in Turlock, and no matter how many times I warned him, he couldn't leave the porn sites alone. Given, that's not my fault, but I'm telling you that Ad-Aware and Spybot would do next to nothing to fix his problems.
Since you don't know what setting the person who opened this thread lives in, and you don't know what activities they engage in, I would advise you to do your homework and come up with universal solutions like I do. I hate getting caught with my foot in my mouth, especially when we're talking about my clients, so I take precautions against it.
Disagreement With Your 'corrections'
by Grif Thomas
- 2/7/07 3:45 PM
In reply to: a few corrections by santuccie
"Vendors know that consumers in general are not that savvy;". I've never known any competitive vendor to think that it's customers weren't knowledgeable. Most want to get as close as possible. Vendors for all types of products ask our opinion when creating products for our large agency. We work with them constantly especially when it comes to network security. If they don't respect our opinions, they won't be our vendors very long. Lavasoft is no different. Vendors that don't respect consumers knowledge usually end up losers..
"The only time you will ever see ZoneAlarm in a business setting is if there is a hardware firewall in front of it." I don't see your point other than to once-again deface a program you don't prefer. With the businesses I deal with, both large and small, almost all use hardware firewalls, so ANY software firewall will be inside that. Many company policies won't allow ANY software firewall except for the basic Windows firewall because they frequently cause connection, employee monitoring, and file sharing issues.. We can't be sending out techs to handle all the firewall issues for our 10,000 + employees and yet, we still have very few problems.
"(over 200 million users worldwide)." Doesn't that tell you something?' It sure does. It tells me "good advertising." It tells me something different entirely... It tells me the product has worked well for a lot of people.. If it didn't, it would no longer be used. That's how the market works.. Your posts make it sound as if members shouldn't use Ad-Aware or Spybot because they don't find everything.. I disagree.. Free or not, if Ad-Aware didn't work well for most users, it wouldn't be used. I still use it as the primary cleanup tool on badly infected computers.. It will install when other tools won't.. It's easy to manually update when others won't. Plus, it runs a full system scan in about half the time of other malware scanners. It's a great tool to use FIRST. Spybot, I use second.. for the same reasons. You point out that Ad-Aware won't catch a polymorphic trojan.. It wasn't designed to.. Antivirus programs, trojan detecters, etc. are better at that part of the removal process. They take longer to run the scan but pick up different malware types. Unfortunately, cleaning up the advanced spyware of today requires multiple tools.. As I've mentioned before , at one time or another, almost all the antispyware programs I've used, have in some cases, found a piece of spyware another tool didn't find. That includes Ad-Aware.
You continue to bring up the situation regarding your grandmother's computer being infected within your wireless network.. I'm not sure what that has to do with antispyware programs but indeed, if that happened to any of the networks I've worked on, I would try to keep it quiet. . An SPI firewall isn't the answer although it solved one computer's problem for you.. Even ZA free can be hardened to stop all network traffic. We prefer to fix the source of the problem, an unsecure wireless network. It's not always easy either. Safety.net didn't fix the source.
Wakedaddy's topic: "different users, different needs" is indeed appropriate.
Just my opinion though.
Grif
We can agree to disagree
by santuccie - 2/7/07 6:37 PM In reply to: Disagreement With Your 'corrections' by Grif Thomas
I know vendors want consumers' opinions, and those opinions tend to deal with features (fluff) rather than technical details. Once again, if the average user were savvy, do you really think there would be work for you and me? I don't.
You are correct about Windows Firewall. But again, in a business setting, given that the decision making is handled by an experienced, networking technician, a hardware firewall would never be replaced by an application firewall. At any rate, that was not my point. You're jumping to ZA's defense again, when I was simply using it as an example. I know you use ZA, as you recently stated in another thread. Good for you, and it's really none of my business. Again, it was just an example.
Ad-Aware has worked well for a lot of people, that is until mid to late 2005. Networking and tech support is what I do, so I get to see these products in action constantly. It's also on TechSupportAlert.com, if you want an opinion besides mine. And let me ask you this: how good do you think AVG (the third product mentioned) is at cleaning Trojans? Not very good at all, especially when they're active.
You are absolutely right about the use of multiple tools for cleaning. But I believe that prevention is better than detection, and it can be achieved with only a couple tools. If anyone is interested in exactly what I use, I can give a list. It's not the best of the best, but it's all free, and it keeps our machines clean. I have run every scanner I know more than once since my last migration, and have yet to find anything left behind by my resident protection. Anyone interested? Just ask me.
I use my grandmother's computer as a prime example because we are in an extreme situation: There are wireless networks all around us. This is an extreme vulnerability, one which I have seen on more than one occasion. If you remember, I've mentioned other application firewalls on other machines I've cleaned (particularly wireless-enabled machines) which had the same problem. Your response was that there was more than one IRC Flood out there. This is true, but I have given more than enough evidence to support my reasoning. You happen to be one of the only people who have argued with it, in fact, you've been arguing with everything I've said ever since I got the idea you were a ZoneAlarm fan and made the call. Sorry if I offended you, but that doesn't justify making blind rebuttles at everything I say, ESPECIALLY when people are paying attention to the information that's being given. For their sake, it would be nice if you would let go of your resentment for me. And for the record, I think 2007 is going to see a lot more attacks from unsolicited connections. That said, I will continue to insist upon SPI over application firewalls, ZoneAlarm included. If you don't like it, megabyte! 
Nothing personal, Grif. I like you, but I will not back down on what I know. I also know that you won't either, and I respect that, but I don't think I'm wrong here.
P.S.: AVG
by santuccie - 2/7/07 6:50 PM In reply to: We can agree to disagree by santuccieAVG made what was probably the smartest move they ever made when they purchased Ewido. Even under the new name and new engine (AVG Anti-Spyware), it is still the most effective product at detecting and removing Trojans that I'm aware of. But even before AVGAS, AVG AV was still not much of a performer at Trojan removal.
In fact, I'd say most AV products cannot effectively remove a Trojan that is already fully active; they can only catch it right when it executes. After that, it's usually the more powerful anti-spyware tools that fare better. The best-rounded of these would be Spy Sweeper and Spyware Doctor, but AVGAS will still do better when it comes to Trojans specifically.
back to the topic...
by santuccie - 2/7/07 8:23 PM In reply to: P.S.: AVG by santuccieI can recommend two free antispyware apps that are well worth their salt. They are Spyware Terminator and AVG Anti-Spyware. Spyware has a sturdy HIPS, that could potentially provide you with some excellent proactive protection if you can tolerate its constant alerts. AVG Anti-Spyware Free does not include real-time protection, but it is still an excellent on-demand scanner that will remove most Trojans as well as a lot of stubborn spyware that other products might not.
For the past week or two now, I have been using CyberDefender. While I haven't been using it long enough to go all out and say this is the one, I will say it has kepy my machine squeaky-clean since I installed it. I have scanned with HJT, Trend Micro HouseCall, Panda ActiveScan, F-Secure, BitDefender, Norton, McAfee, AVG Anti-Spyware, a-squared, Clam, Dr.WEB, GData's Remover, Ad-Aware (yes, I still use it for grayware), and a bunch of rootkit scanners since then. I have yet to find a single item left behind by CyberDefender (knock on wood).
Besides your regular antivirus, antispyware, and firewall; it would also be good for you to have a HIPS (Host Intrusion Prevention Systems) unit. Novatix Cyberhawk is the best non-virtualization/sandbox HIPS I'm aware of. You might seriously want to give it a try.
Hope this helps, and sorry about the off-topic squabbling (which I have been as guilty of as anyone). 
one more...
by santuccie - 2/7/07 8:25 PM In reply to: back to the topic... by santuccieSUPERAntiSpyware is also really good. The free version is an on-demand scanner only, but a follow-up that's well worth considering.
by the way
by santuccie - 2/7/07 8:39 PM In reply to: back to the topic... by santuccieJust a quick heads-up for anyone who wants to try CyberDefender. Some products will detect some of its components (SpyBlocs) as adware. These are actually legitimate, and I would advise against tampering with them. The only ads CD will serve you are banner ads at the top of the console window (no popups, popunders, or anything else of the like). You'll hardly even notice them!
Opinion Stated As If It Were Fact...
by Grif Thomas - 2/7/07 9:40 PM
In reply to: P.S.: AVG by santuccie
Once again, you're taking this personal. Talk of "backing down" is a young voice trying to show how tough it is. Hopefully, that's not the case here. We're discussing the quality of antispyware products in this thread and specifically, my response reflected my curiosity and disagreement of your stated "facts".
"in fact, you've been arguing with everything I've said ever since I got the idea you were a ZoneAlarm fan"
"it would be nice if you would let go of your resentment for me"
"blind rebuttles at everything I say"
(Nope..You need to check back on the number of your posts and how many I've actually responded to. Unfortunately, stating an opinion as fact begs for rebuttal. So I occasionally try to make you and others aware that stated facts sometimes aren't. Others members do the same to me. Apparently, disagreement with your opinion is not allowed. It's your decision on how to take it. No "resentment" here. Not "blind" either.)
Even the title of your previous post: "Corrections" is interesting. It seems to express your opinion of others that disagree with you. You "correct" not "disagree".. State your opinion as opinion, and not gospel, and we've got no disagreement.
More:
"I know vendors want consumers' opinions, those opinions tend to deal with features (fluff) rather than technical details" (Nope, you must not have dealt with enough computer product vendors. Each situation is different. In our case,we work both sides. Sometimes, we help them program the stuff. We've got our own programmers and sometimes do it ourselves.. Features and technical details combined. For example, in some fields, we've got staff that create the programs and hardware, based on specific needs, which vendors then sell to other nationwide users.)
"The best-rounded of these would be Spy Sweeper and Spyware Doctor" (Or do you mean: In my opinion....The best-rounded..." Lots of reviews disagree, so show us a consensus of reviews that say so. Anything else is your experience with the product and your OPINION.)
"In fact, I'd say most AV products cannot effectively remove a Trojan that is already fully active". (That depends on the trojan and the AV product. The same holds true for most antispyware tools as well. That's why Killbit, smitfraudfix, etc. were created.. Trojans tend to lock their files and as a result, some antivirus/antispyware programs do better than others..
"AVGAS will still do better when it comes to Trojans specifically." (Or do you really mean, "In my opinion...AVGAS will..." Which trojans? Have you done qualified tests using all products on all types of machines, in all situations? There HAVE been tests for true Trojan removers such as: Trojan Hunter, AVG, TDS-3, The Cleaner, and all the rest. Did you include those? I suspect your experience is somewhat limited. In most tests, AVG Antispyware is not normally selected as the best. Granted, it's a good tool, maybe one of the best, but finding good, qualified reviews of the newest products is near impossible. I'd love to see even two that agree. See the silliness of the reviews below. )
http://anti-spyware-review.toptenreviews.com/
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3688_7-6456087-1.html
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/labs/133/anti-spyware/products.html
"I use my grandmother's computer as a prime example because we are in an extreme situation" (Nope, in my experience, your situation is quite common. Crackers abound and our agency's wireless networks are surrounded by such issues. We generally secure the network first and even then, nothing is perfect, no matter which firewall you use.)
For others reading this post, the point is, don't depend on anyone's advice alone.. Check the facts for yourself.. Try the tools suggested. Do some research on the product suggested.. And if the tools are free.. Try them all if you think they apply.
Hope this helps.
Grif
Let me rephrase that then...
by santuccie - 2/7/07 11:35 PM In reply to: Opinion Stated As If It Were Fact... by Grif Thomas
May everyone who reads this be informed that the statements that follow and any preceeding them are in fact, opinionated. Now, that out of the way:
'Sometimes, we help them program the stuff. We've got our own programmers and sometimes do it ourselves.' Yes, I know what a developers network is. But you seem to be evading the underlying statement I'm trying to make, which deals with advertising. First, let me show you a seven-year-old comparison between the firewall you use (ZoneAlarm) and the firewall that every Windows hacker I know uses (BlackICE). Mind you, this information comes from ISS, the makers of BlackICE, so we could get into a really big yapping contest about the objectiveness here, but nevertheless, I suggest you read this information with an open mind and take in every detail: http://www.iss.net/security_center/advice/Support/KB/q000132/default.htm
ISS was recently purchased by none other than International Business Machines (IBM). When you talk about Ad-Aware, and how long it's been serving the needs of its users, you might want to apply this to the company who spurred the PC trend. If anyone knows what works and what doesn't, they might be a relatively credible source to consult. Again, this is my OPINION, so don't byte my head off here.
Let's take audio amplifiers for example. Everyone, or almost everyone, has heard the name Pioneer. Then, there's Carver. While this is a growing name as well, the AVERAGE consumer might not have heard of it. Well, some time ago, Pioneer (I'm pretty sure it was Pioneer, but I don't remember for SURE) challenged Carver to build an amplifier that was identical to their own. They did. When electronically tested, everything matched, from signal to noise ratio, to frequency response. When asked "how they did it," they said, "We added distortion."
Granted, we are talking about audio amplifiers, and not antispyware, but it's all relative. Everyone has heard of Pioneer because they SPEND MONEY to have their product presented to the masses. If you care to call this my "opinion," and "not gospel," by all means, make the call. But regardless of whatever rhetoric you can muster, I THINK you would be putting your foot in your mouth. Average users may not be especially savvy, but they do have reasoning skills. Besides that, if you look back over my previous posts, I said "those opinions TEND to deal with features (fluff) rather than technical details." In addition, I said "AVERAGE users." So these statements could, in fact, be held as "fact." If you have as much experience as you appear to suggest in your statements that follow, you will know this to be "fact."
'Have you done qualified tests using all products on all types of machines, in all situations?' 'I suspect your experience is somewhat limited.' Wrong you are, Grif. My experience is vast, and the "tests" I have run could be called "real world tests." In case you missed it in my other posts, I did say that networking and tech support are what I do, and I get to see these products in action. Say what you want, but you would only be making for argument, which I hope I will have "evaded" by being a little more "cautious" about "stating opinions as facts" in the future.
Finally, 'Nope, in my experience, your situation is quite common.' I didn't say it wasn't common; I said it was extreme, and it is. Especially following the last time I disinfected my grandma's machine, when infection from unsolicited connections was brought to an IMMEDIATE HALT by the installation of an SPI firewall, which was exactly what I was aiming for when I installed it. And this is worthy information in MY OPINION, as circumstances like these really give you the opportunity to put your favorite tools to the acid test. Again, I frequently reference the scenario with my grandma's machine because, while I was there to disinfect other machines following events that were similar according to the information I got, this is the one machine I had intimate contact with up to and following this issue with botnets.
Hope this helps!
antispyware
by rahul_tigers - 2/4/07 9:12 AM In reply to: What is the the best free anti-spyware program? by ifihadonechanceget superantispyware that is the best 1,its free
It Also Depends on What You Use It For...
by Grif Thomas - 2/5/07 4:54 PM
In reply to: What is the the best free anti-spyware program? by ifihadonechance
I use a certain type of tool on a computer which has quick internet access because it's easy to update the program and it works well as a "preventative" tool.
I use other types tools when I'm cleaning out infected computers when the work must be done entirely offline. Many of the infected computers I cleanup will barely run, and they certainly can't connect to the internet. My primary need in this case is for an effective program which can be updated using manually downloadable updates. In some cases, they are stand-alone removal tools. (For example, a current "defs.ref" file can be pasted into the appropriate Ad-Aware folder after the program is first installed and the program will be current. Likewise, AVG's Antispyware has a manual update installer.) Not all programs allow for that. Likewise, they must be free licenses. Naturally, the owner can't afford to purchase a new license for every machine that might require the installation of the program. IN that way, I can install multiple antispyware tools, clean up the computer, remove the programs when I'm done and not charge the owner for anything except my time.
And in my experience, I use "what works"... Almost all the antispyware programs I've used, have in some cases, found a piece of spyware another tool didn't find..
Hope this helps.
Grif
Hope this helps.
Grif
Proactive prevention..
by nevi - 2/6/07 1:11 AM In reply to: It Also Depends on What You Use It For... by Grif Thomas
I think AVG AS probably is one of the best to find and remove Trojans(as santuccie pointed out).
But I think,to find and reomove real spyware(also the tough ones..its very important whether it actually can REMOVE the crap too),will be Superantispyware and Spysweeper.They are both state of the art apps Re this,and is constantly improved.
I agree that many different AS apps is good.Its just bothersome with all those in and reinstallations.
The last year,I have found,that IMO the best way to stop AS,but also virus,is some kind off proactive prevention.
Kasperskys have a good Proactive module in their KAV/KIS 6 and I think we will see more of that kind of prevention in the future.
Spyware Doctor is the best i feel!!!
by g_harikrishnan - 2/7/07 8:23 AM In reply to: What is the the best free anti-spyware program? by ifihadonechanceI was badly affected by Spyware in my PC.. Spyware Doctor helped me clean up the Spyware entirely!!!
I second
by santuccie - 2/7/07 6:52 PM In reply to: Spyware Doctor is the best i feel!!! by g_harikrishnanWhile Webroot Spy Sweeper has the best real-time protection, I'd have to say it is bettered by Spyware Doctor when it comes to post-mortem, on-demand scanning. It's also close to Spy Sweeper in real-time protection as well; not at all a slouch here. Definitely recommended!
Spysweeper & Spydoctor should be made free man!
by den65 - 2/9/07 10:22 AM In reply to: I second by santuccieI noticed for the longest time Ad-Aware used to be no 1 in the most popular software list in CNET. Nowadays the 2 antispyware apps have taken 1st & 2nd place respectively. Consistently good reviews have been given for the 2 apps, but a pity they're not entirely free.
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