The Real Deal: SAFETY NOTICE: How to put out a laptop/battery fire...
Freon is one thing...
by DerfX - 8/29/06 6:15 PM In reply to: And never discharge Freon around a running engine... by boomslangTry cleaning a carborator or throttle body with "Brake-Cleaner" while the engine is running. Oh my God, I believe the properties of what comes out of the tail pipe is somewhere along the lines of the mustard gas they used in WW2.
You can definitely clear out a shop real quick. It is a good way to get everyone to take a break outside for a good 30 minutes or so.
It really sucks when it's the new guy just across the shop from you and he doesn't realize what he is doing until everybody is choking and running.
Halocarbons all disasterous around extremely hot fires...
by boomslang - 8/29/06 8:30 PM In reply to: Freon is one thing... by DerfXHave had plenty of experience with R12; Electrical Contact cleaner and BrakeCleen are both R11. What you are producing when chlorofluorocarbons get inhaled by an engine and exposed to high temperatures is Phosgene gas, one of the horrible things used by the Germans in WWI to disable and kill the enemy and if the wind blew the wrong way, their own troops. It will burn your corneas, blister your skin and melt lung tissue if encountered in sufficient concentration. Thankfully, it's so noxious that most people will voluntarily leave an area before it gets to that level.
It can cause cardiovascular effects (pulmonary edema) that will kill you hours later.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp
Once even saw a demonstration showing that Freon 12 is not as safe as it has been let on to be in automotive refridgerant systems. At the extreme pressures and temperatures in an engine compartment on a really hot summer day, a burst high pressure line produces an extremely flammable oil mist that then burns to produce one of the most noxious fires you can have to fight.
I mention all of this because Halon 1211 and 1301 are halocarbons both commonly used in some electronic fire applications. It has been mentioned that they be used on these lithium battery fires, a big no-no if you are working with primary Lithium cells (non-rechargeable) that catch fire. In these batteries, you have enough Lithium Metal burning to produce the high temperatures necessary to decompose the halon compounds into Chorine and Fluorine byproducts that can harm you. These fires are best fought with Class D, dry powder crusting type extingushants.
Some of the NTSB stuff that I've read seems to say that in LiPoly and Li-Ion batteries, you are mostly dealing with more of a class B or C fire, (Not enough free Lithium metal) that will be extinguishable by halon.
I still say...
by DerfX - 9/1/06 4:13 PM In reply to: Halocarbons all disasterous around extremely hot fires... by boomslang...just throw the damn thing out into the yard and watch it burn. Sony or Dell will likely give you a new one anyway.
Shawnee F.D. puts out ''Trick Flame'' Vaio laptop...
by shawnlin - 8/25/06 7:02 AM In reply to: SAFETY NOTICE: How to put out a laptop/battery fire... by shawnlinI'm contacting the Shawnee fire dept who recently put out the ''trick flame'' Vaio laptop to get their opinion on this. When I get some response, I'll post it here in the forums.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/23/sony-gets-theirs-flaming-vaio-brings-the-firefighters/
Battery fires, etc.
by REM509 - 8/25/06 8:22 AM In reply to: SAFETY NOTICE: How to put out a laptop/battery fire... by shawnlinHi!
As an owner of a new MacBook who observed hers heat up in the area of the battery with alarm just last night (I shut down but then could not restart; wouldn't cool so I unplugged overnight; just restarted but won't stay on long!), couldn't get through to AppleCare, and heard on NPR this AM that new Apples were having same trouble as Dell's last week . . . well, I am very grateful for your expert posting to CNET!!!
Just in case, I checked the type of extinguishers my apt. mgmt. supplies and one is an ABC and the other a BC. The ABC was last serviced in April 2005 and the BC is more recent though bears no tag(!). So my questions to you are:
--Should I dash out and buy a D extinguisher to be safe?
--If there is a fire, should I reach for the ABC that was last serviced over a year ago?
--Or should I try the BC with no tag?
Anxiously, Rebecca
if the BC is full, it should be okay...read on...
by shawnlin - 8/25/06 11:00 AM In reply to: Battery fires, etc. by REM509Hi Rebecca,
If the BC is full (there should be a recharge/full dial near the neck of the extinguisher), it should be okay. Same goes for the ABC.
The servicing is not much more than making sure it's full and then making sure it works - give it a quick squirt somewhere in the open to test it.
If the canisters need a recharge or don't eject anything, TELL YOUR MANAGEMENT IMMEDIATELY. That's bad for your own safety and the safety of the apartment complex and could cost the complex owner a lot.
If you REALLY want to make sure you're okay, go to a hardware store and get a Carbon Dioxide (CO2) ABC canister - probably anywhere from $15-30. The Kidde brand is usually just fine.
I don't think the ''D'' will be necessary - a CO2 ABC canister should be fine. If after talking with the personnel at the hardware store you think you
Bottom line - you oughta be able to live your life comfortably. I just have a couple ABC extinguishers in my apartment (1 in the bedroom, 1 by the kitchen) and another ABC extinguisher in my car (although, I 'll need to get a ''D'' type for my car I think...there are special metal fires that react violently with water and some chemical extinguishers and the ''D'' types are designed to be ''unreactive'').
Best,
Shalin
(NT) does that help?
by shawnlin - 8/25/06 1:16 PM In reply to: if the BC is full, it should be okay...read on... by shawnlinDry chem extinguisher not the best for electrical fires
by bimmerpilot - 8/25/06 2:59 PM In reply to: SAFETY NOTICE: How to put out a laptop/battery fire... by shawnlinWhile dry chemical extinguishers are OK for electrical fires, the chemicals used will form a hard crust on hot metal. This may create a problem if you plan on recovering & using the electrical device. If you have ever used a dry chem on a kitchen stove fire or on an auto engine fire, you know what I mean. This crust may be conductive & is certainly hard to remove, so the fire will be out but the laptop may also be out. If a Halon extinguisher is available, use it, as it leaves no residue to be cleaned up; unfortunately, Halon is a gas that has been linked to ecological problems, so availability is uncertain. Halon is also not breathable, so after discharging one of these extinguishers, get out into fresh air & ventilate the area well before re-entering.
I suggest not using a halon extinguisher indoors...
by shawnlin - 8/25/06 4:01 PM In reply to: Dry chem extinguisher not the best for electrical fires by bimmerpilotA halon extinguisher will work quite well, but not on you if you're indoors.
Personally, I would rather put out the fire, loose the laptop and just recover the hard drive instead of using a halon extinguisher.
I know, I know - the laptop may feel like an old friend to you... If you've got combustable material around - just put the fire out ASAP. When fire gets in contact with general trash/walls/furniture it can typically double it's size every ~8 seconds! Fire is going to move very, very fast. If you don't put it out fast - you may end up loosing your house along with your laptop.
That's Interesting!
by richard-s - 8/25/06 4:56 PM In reply to: I suggest not using a halon extinguisher indoors... by shawnlinI used to work in enclosed computer rooms which had Halon fire systems.
"Management" assured us that the gas "was perfectly safe."
Management claimed that it would make a loud frightening noise but would not affect our breathing or health!
(Management didn't work in the rooms!)
Luckily, we had only one fire during my time: A network hub caught fire but the cooling air currents blew the smoke away from the detectors and the halon gas was not triggered. (The unit burnt out!)
Yep, management didn't work in the room...
by boomslang - 8/26/06 8:46 AM In reply to: That's Interesting! by richard-sYou and fires live by breathing oxygen, CO2 and halon work by displacing oxygen. In small enclosed areas, CO2 and halon extinguishers can snuff you as well as the fire. The high temperature fire from burning lithium and magnesium can also generate phosgene gas from the chlorine content.
http://www.h3r.com/products/faq.htm
http://www.h3r.com/halon/ac2042c.htm
Per the FAA, halon and Class D fires:
(4) Class D. Fires which involve combustible metals, such as magnesium, titanium, zirconium, sodium, lithium, and potassium, and require extinguishing agents of the dry powder types. The recommendations of the manufacturer for use of those extinguishers should be followed because of the possible chemical reaction between the burning metal and the extinguishing agent.
(2) Tests indicate that human exposure to high levels of Halon vapors may result in dizziness, impaired coordination, and reduced mental sharpness.... Halogenated agents will also decompose into more toxic products when subjected to flame or hot surfaces at approximately 900ºF (482ºC)...
The decomposition products of the Halon have a characteristic sharp, acrid odor, and an eye irritation effect, even in concentrations of only a few parts per million....
Note: Never discharge Halon 1211 on Class D (burning metal) fires.
Per University of Florida lab safety guidelines
4.1.1.5. Halon-gas extinguishers
Halon-gas (halon) extinguishers are effective against electrical fires without causing low-temperature stress effects to electronic equipment.
Halon can be used for Class B and C fires. It is somewhat less effective with Class A fires (see Disadvantages below). Do not use halon on a Class D fire.
... and Dense Fog!
by richard-s - 8/26/06 9:04 AM In reply to: Yep, management didn't work in the room... by boomslangEven that scary stuff does not mention that the release of Halon gas by fire systems often causes dense fog; making it even harder to find the exit!
(NT) geez...that's no good...
by shawnlin - 8/26/06 9:29 AM In reply to: ... and Dense Fog! by richard-sAWESOME resource!
by shawnlin - 8/26/06 9:31 AM In reply to: Yep, management didn't work in the room... by boomslangWow, I've been scouring the web to find that info - awesome find and thanks for the posting!
Looks like a type "D" would be best...even though the laptop maybe a loss anyhow...
halon extinguisher
by njohn1 - 8/27/06 8:49 PM In reply to: I suggest not using a halon extinguisher indoors... by shawnlinYou are right not to use a halon extinguisher indoors. When halon is heated it produces a toxic gas that can kill you. If you do use one indoors be sure yuo are not breathing fumes from the fire.
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