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Buzz Out Loud Lounge: Blu-Ray vs HD DVD
Sony takes a hit on PS3 cost because...
by MacHugger - 6/1/06 2:53 PM In reply to: Blu-Ray vs HD DVD by hoomanborhaniThey intend to make up for it in game sales. It's like Gillette or somebody selling you the razor itself relatively cheaply because they make most of their money on selling the blades.
I'm sure that each and every PS3 game that is sold, whether it was developed by Sony Games or not, a license fee goes into Sony's big fat pockets.
As for their consumer Blu-Ray player, they cannot afford to put it out at a loss because they won't make nearly enough profit just from Blu-Ray dvd sales that are not games.
-Kevin S.
Licencing Fees
by Runner49 - 6/2/06 12:48 PM In reply to: Sony takes a hit on PS3 cost because... by MacHuggerYou are right, but did you know licencing fees come from both games and movies? Sony owns the current DVD licencing so they make boat loads on it, and they want to continue making money with I think they make more with the games though which would explain why the BluRay player is more expensive. AND why all game companies take a loss when selling their systems.
Blu-Ray & PS/3 Rule
by zmaniac - 6/2/06 6:08 AM In reply to: Blu-Ray vs HD DVD by hoomanborhaniThe last game console I bought was a Vectrex, and an Intellivision was the one before that.
I plan to be first in line for PS/3.
It's gonna be utterly awesome on my Sony 60" Grand WEGA.
It's the cost of new technology...
by speleofool - 6/2/06 8:56 AM In reply to: Blu-Ray vs HD DVD by hoomanborhaniI've worked in a job that had me testing new consumer electronics devices before they hit the market, and as a result I got some insight into some of the market forces at work. Maybe this will help explain why new technology costs so much....
In the beginning, you have design work. All the hardware is custom, scraped together from available parts. The lab versions are expensive, and sometimes you'll identify changes needed in certain components. Eventually you'll determine a final parts list based on what works and who can build what you need. In some cases parts may come from more than one vendor if they are fully compatible.
When manufacturing first starts to happen, you're reliant on other companies to produce some of the parts you need. At the beginning of the product life cycle, there are often few of these parts, especially if they are something new (like a blue-laser optical drive). Not only do your costs need to offset the manufacturers cost of building something new, but the supply if often low in the beginning so you pay even more because fewer parts are available.
Over time, the startup cost for manufacturing the new components goes away and more parts become available, perhaps from more vendors. That will drive down the build cost of your CE device substantially and you can pass the savings on to consumers.
In any case, the fact that Blu-Ray players will cost $1000 initially certainly has a lot to do with the cost of new technology. The PS3 price is lower because:
1. Sony is losing money on the hardware, which they expect to make up in game revenues.
2. The PS3 is a game machine first, and its Blu-Ray capabilities are almost certainly not as finely engineered (with all the costly, tight-tolerance parts) as a standalone Blu-Ray player. Otherwise it would cost even more. Just imagine if a standalone player costs $1000 how much more it would cost to add in PS3 gaming capabilities....
3. The initial Blu-Ray players are coming out several months before the PS3, which will make the initial cost of the new Blu-Ray technology a bigger factor.
The bottom line is that Sony hopes that blu-Ray will catch on, and I'm certain they'd offer their players for less money if they could. I also have no doubt the prices will drop over time for the very reasons I've listed above. The $1000 price tag isn't all greed, but if it's out of your price range, then by all means don't buy yet!
Personally, I'm "boycotting" both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray because I believe they've overstepped the bounds of reasonable copy protection. I don't want to get stuck with movies that have "image constraint," so unless that requirement goes away or all of my must-have favorite titles become available without image constraint, I'm not buying. I also want a better assurance of what will happen to my existing discs / player of one of the security keys becomes compromised, as I'm certain will happen eventually. I don't want to be stuck with "coasters" or a "boat anchor."
Cheers!
Speleo.
What format to choose then....
by hoomanborhani - 6/2/06 11:17 AM In reply to: It's the cost of new technology... by speleofoolAfter looking around on the internet more and reading your post, it seems alot more people are considering boycotting both HD DVD and Blu-Ray, and I guess this makes sense to boycott both if they are going to use a DRM kind of protection and you are opposed to that.
However from thier point of view, sending 1080p quality video without DRM is asking for trouble if you look at sites like the late Pirate Bay (if it ever comes back). Just hook up a DVR to your 1080p movie and BAM high quality movies are all over the internet, and I am sure the MPAA does not want that to happen.
I bought my 26" Samsung LCD HD from BB last week and I have to say, DVD's at 480 and HDTV over the air at 720p (since I dont have HDTV through cable yet) is great. I personally am able to tell a big difference with just my naked eye, so my new question is:
I guess I am going to hold off on both HD DVD and Blu Ray until sombody wins out or sombody like Samsung makes a dual player (if both sides allow that eventually). Seeing this do you all think Upconversion players with HDMI cables are close enough to matching HD DVD and Blu Ray that myself and other consumers will be satisfied?
About the boycotting issue
by MacHugger - 6/2/06 11:57 AM In reply to: What format to choose then.... by hoomanborhaniThe same applies to all of those who think the whole rootkit mess will significantly affect Sony sales...
I think those of us who are plugged-in to the tech scene overestimate the little fits and rants and promises of ''I will NEVER buy X-company ever again.'' Memories fade, cool products come out, we forgive. I do it myself. I was convinced Sony should be ''punished'' and that I would get an X-box but then I went to E3, thought the PS3 blew away anything I saw from Nintendo or Microsoft and changed my mind.
Most American consumers don't care about DRM issues. They either don't care if they ''technically'' violate some clause somewhere or don't care if they can't copy it because most don't. Who copies DVDs? I know people who download movies but they know it's wrong and if it goes away, it goes away. Too bad.
We argue silly points on here to death sometimes. The DRM issue gets analyzed down to the subatomic level on the BOL podcast, therefore we (the listeners) have a skewed view of how big an issue it really is.
The only thing that will dictate the success or failure of HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray will be if people feel a ''desire'' to get one. Factors influencing that desire will be cost, apparent need (e.g. do they own an HDTV and want it to look better), content and maybe ease of adoption - will it be backward compatible with their current library. I just think for most consumers, DRM issues will be a very weak factor in influencing their decision to purchase these things. I'd guess that if you said ''DRM'' to 100 people, 97 of them would have no idea what you are talking about.
I'd rather see something better come along and wipe them both into oblivion - like downloading HD content from ITMS or some other place.
-Kevin S.
Could this be THE paradigm shift in movie distribution?
by hoomanborhani - 6/2/06 1:42 PM In reply to: About the boycotting issue by MacHuggerOk, so if there is a stalemate with HD DVD and Blu-Ray, you make an interesting comment. Maybe Apple will start distributing HD content over the net instead of buying DVD disks. The only problem I could forsee is the size of such files. Maybe if there is a way to compress it and then uncompress it upon download it could work.
Bandwidth and heteronyms
by MacHugger - 6/2/06 2:47 PM In reply to: Could this be THE paradigm shift in movie distribution? by hoomanborhaniYeah, bandwidth of HD content remains an issue and, isn't that something that is starting to scare ISPs - the fear that the internet will be clogged with massive file transfers? Too bad! Build larger pipelines!! 
Another argument, which I feel is invalid* is that consumers want a DVD case on their shelf as opposed to having just the content sitting on a hard drive. Yeah, yeah... the same arguments were used on Music CDs before the iTunes Mustic Store banished that point into the land of Moot.
-Kevin S.
* INVALID yaaaay... a heteronym. Its meaning changes depending upon how you say it. One prounciation makes it a person who is physically incapacitated. The other makes it "falsely reasoned." I find it REALLY difficult to come up with these words if somebody were to say "list ten heteronyms." The way the human brain works (at least mine) makes it much easier to come up with homonyms, synonyms and antonyms.
CDs vs. online music....
by speleofool - 6/6/06 12:51 PM In reply to: Bandwidth and heteronyms by MacHuggerMy question in all of this is, when are we going to see the shift back toward quality? I don't need a case on my shelf, but I also don't want downloadable content that compresses the life out my entertainment to save a few bytes. I still buy CDs because they sound better on my Hi-Fi system at home, but I don't buy nearly as many as I used to because they've gotten too expensive for my taste. It's forced me to be a lot more selective about what I purchase.
Cheers!
Speleo.
Try Secondspin.com
by bhekon - 6/7/06 10:10 AM In reply to: CDs vs. online music.... by speleofoolSecondspin.com can give you an opportunity to find cheaper used CDs. Their quality is very high for the discsand they have a really big selection.
I am getting away from CD's Myself.
Jeff Glaze - AtlantaEvent.com editor
The answer to your final question.
by Runner49 - 6/2/06 2:07 PM In reply to: What format to choose then.... by hoomanborhaniUpconverters cannot really incease the resolution of a DVD. DVD's are standard def, the DVD player can only read one color for each pixel on the screen. If you use an upconverter it will change the format but it could potentially have nicer looking edges.
Here is a good scenario for you.
You have 2 TV's.
Both playing the same DVD.
One is a standard Definition TV.
The other is a HDTV.
The HDTV has an upconverter connected to it.
Lets say the HDTV has exaclty 4X the resolution when compared to the SDTV(for the sake of simplicity).
The DVD player hooked up to the SDTV reads the data and puts the corrisponding colors into the correct pixels. Thus displaying a standard definition picture.
The DVD player hooked up to the HDTV starts out the same but before the signal gets to the TV it is upconverted like so:
Note: For the following you must assume the SD sample I give is the same size as the HD sample. (eg. 1 SD pixel = 4 HD pixels)
P = 1 Purple pixel
ONE SDTV PIXEL
------
| P |
------
FOUR HDTV PIXELS
-----------
| P | P |
-----------
| P | P |
-----------
In this case the HD pixels are smaller and it would take 4 of them to fill the same space as 1 SD pixel.
So using this method will not produce a better picture. Unless there is some mathmatical averaging done by the upconverter.
EXAMPLE:
P = 1 Purple pixel
O = 1 Orange pixel
FOUR SDTV PIXELS
-----------
| P | O |
-----------
| P | P |
-----------
SIXTEEN HDTV PIXELS
---------------------
| P | O | O | O |
---------------------
| P | P | O | O |
---------------------
| P | P | P | O |
---------------------
| P | P | P | P |
---------------------
Using this method will allow an upconverter to give your DVD's nicer looking lines. They will look more smooth and not as jagged on your HDTV. I however am not sure if upconverters do this, as it is the only logical thing that could be done to make the picture look nicer. I must add though the different connections really do make a difference, I have an HD projector and I have made direct compairisons with composite, s-video, and component inputs the difference is very noticable (Especially at over 200"). Unfortunatly all of those are analog signals that can lose strenth an look worse depending on how long / poor quality the cable is. BUT... an HDMI cable sends a digital signal which will give you perfect color and signal strength. I have heard many people happily report that they love thier DVD upconverters so I say GO AHEAD AND GET ONE, at least until the war is over and the dust has settled.
The answer to your question... and the Price of the PS3
by Runner49 - 6/2/06 11:40 AM In reply to: Blu-Ray vs HD DVD by hoomanborhaniThe answer to your question is yes. If we all boycotted the BluRay formatt HD DVD will win the formatt war. There is no doubt about it, that's just the way the economy works. Trust me, I took advance economics in college. If the BluRay movies are not selling then Hollywood will lean more twards HD DVD and BluRay would slowly fade, even if Sony continues to push if people don't buy BluRay discs Hollywood will not make them.
The reason the PS3 is a low cost Blu-Ray player is because Sony is banking thier whole future on the system. THEY DO NOT MAKE PROFIT FROM THE CONSOLE!!! They acctually loose money for each system sold (Same with Nintendo and Microsoft). Microsoft was said to be loosing $100 on each system. So the real question you must be asking yourself is how are they gonna make money if it costs more than $600 to make? Sony takes home a percentage of every video game and every blu-ray disc sold! ALL OF THEM! Which much like DVD's adds up to many MILLIONS of dollars for them. Many movies and games sell over 1 million copies, if Sony only took a dollar from each sale they could make hundreds of millions maybe even billions each year I don't have any figures to work with (there are several factors to consider). But you can bet your life Sony has a really good reason for selling the console at a huge loss. That is why the first BluRay player are $999, they are NOT being sold at a loss.
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