Car Tech: HI TECH MEANS HIGHER PRICES ? $$$
HI TECH MEANS HIGHER PRICES ? $$$
by nutmuffin - 9/20/05 8:51 PMOk, now back down to reality.. who the hell can afford these sleek new models ?
The real challenge is bulding a car with hi tech at a low price, a car shouldnt cost the same as a downpayment on a home ! please !!!
Someone has to pay for the advances
by ChuckT - 9/21/05 12:57 PM In reply to: HI TECH MEANS HIGHER PRICES ? $$$ by nutmuffinThe newest of tech is generally introduced on the expensive car lines where the people will pay for the additional cost. As the technology becomes more common place and, in a sense, even expected, then those technologies get applied to the "lesser" lines, and the cost also comes down because of the economies of scale.
That is what has happened for all sorts of things like:
air conditioning,
cruise control,
tinted windows,
power windows,
power steering,
AM/FM radio,
intermittent windshield wipers,
trip odometer
Very few cars do not these items now, but all of them were first introduced as "extras" on higher end car lines.
The same will be true of most of the really great extras now. Be patient.
CLEVERLY DESIGNED TO PLANT THE SEED OF "WANT"
by nutmuffin - 9/21/05 9:30 PM In reply to: Someone has to pay for the advances by ChuckTBut years ago, as those extras were being introduced
it was a different economy, salaries went up at a steady rate, gas was cheaper and most technologies you mentioned were manufactured right here in the US.
using assembly line union workers, most made using real metals, wiring, not circuit boards. So the cost of labor was higher, and they had to invent newer technologies to bring the cost down. They have done that. Today the car companies have no excuse for not offering new technologies at lower prices immediately to the working market. they are manufactured by cheap labor overseas, they are all made of circuit boards, and most are plastics , not metal.
So whats their excuse for charging the ridiculous prices for cars ?
R&D costs reman
by ChuckT - 9/22/05 7:31 AM In reply to: CLEVERLY DESIGNED TO PLANT THE SEED OF "WANT" by nutmuffinMaybe you can sustain the argument that making a piece of material out of plastic is cheaper than making the same piece out of metal, or that labor prices are cheaper overseas, and all that; but the creation of any new development still costs the development. The R&D for making those wonders can still be enormous.
It's the similar argument that many people have, that software should not cost what it does because a floppy or a CD is only pennies. Well, maybe the medium to put those hundreds, thousands, even hundreds of thousands of manhours of work is only pennies, but those manhours cost plenty. You have to allow the company that invests in those R&D costs to make a fair profit, or else such R&D will not be attempted the next time.
I know there is a lot of profit in items after those costs are recouped, but that is the America Enterprise system. I support it, and if you were on the positive side of investing in such companies you'd see the argument I am making for it, as well.It is not always equally fair, but I would rather have that than some other economic systems.
(NT) That should have been "R&D costs REMAIN" (sorry)
by ChuckT - 9/22/05 12:33 PM In reply to: R&D costs reman by ChuckTwhat are we actually paying for ?
by nutmuffin - 9/22/05 9:01 PM In reply to: R&D costs reman by ChuckT>but the creation of any new development still costs the development. The R&D for making those wonders can still be enormous.<
What are the elements of research and development which would drive the cost of a car up?
Of course any company is entitled to a ROIC ( a return on their investment capital) But, what are the new never- seen- before technologies in these concept cars which needed to be newly created which cost so much to develop? ?
MPS players? GPS? DVD, CD ?These features already exist in other markets. Nothing new there.
Now ,if you are telling me that these concept cars are testing a completely new type of metal/or other outer shell substance which can reflect heat , deflect wind currents so as to make cars get 100 MPG. that is a big benefit,and that would demand new facilities to test it. That would cost more in R& D.
Another example, if even one of these auto companies develops an avro-car which can successfully lift off the ground into the air so that the average driver can soar above the expressway,that would be new R&D. New testing facilities, higher costs. makes sense.
Another example, building the space shuttle , the outter tiles, that was created by NASA. Never existed before. New technology, and to test it, required new equipment . thus, high R& D costs.
All the hardware technology in these concept cars already exist in cell phones, computers, MPS players, there is no new ground broken here.
So, where is the R&D cost coming from ?
computer chips which cost so much ? nope.
Software programing ? (which integrates all those hardwares together inside the car) .Cost of salaries of programmers.? There are probably more brillant programmers in the US than there are lawyers.. I dont think that this type of programming knowledge is so rare that it would drive up the cost of R&D. (no insult to programmers everywhere, I bow to your expertise )
So, Lets face it, the auto companies are charging more not because they need to, but because of 1 reason; GREED.
Good point. but...
by MPowerF1 - 9/28/05 7:50 PM In reply to: what are we actually paying for ? by nutmuffinThough I understand your point and agree with it somewhat, what you have to understand is that the international economy is definately not what it was. For example, because the Euro is worth more than the dollar, auto makers have to adjust prices so that their profits = the amounts that they charge in dollars. Pretty obvious I know, but it something that is almost always forgotten. Plus, you have to keep in mind the American economy. There have been some criticizisms made about many cars being much more expensive than they were when they first came out. For example, the new 2006 Mazda MX-5 starts at 20,995 for a Club Sport model whereas the original car started at 13,500. But you adjust the original for inflation and you get a car that actually cost more than the new model which has bucket-loads more technology. So that is definately something that you have to keep in mind.
But at the same time it is a problem in which auto makers have to do because the long term future of the automobile is unknown. Because crude oil is a limited commodity, it is unknown how long such a supply will exist. For all we know, it will end tomorrow. Or we could have enough for another million years. So automakers almost have to account of the unknown future not just in the oil but in their cars themselves. Think of it this way: lets say you were taking a look at Porsche ten or so years ago. They were very close to dropping the ball and declaring bankruptcy. Thanks to the Boxster, they were able to make money and stay alive. So it makes sense now that they are making more models in order to ensure their long term future.
Yes, a big part of this issue is down to the auto makers wanting everything for themselves. But it is just part of the business that will never go away. When an automaker can build a car and get pretty much what ever price they ask for it, there is very little insentive to stop asking a higher and higher price. It sucks for the consumer but there isnt a whole lot that anyone can do about it. Fortunately, in a few years a lot of technology from all the previous luxury sedans (Mercedes and BMWs) will start to filter down to the economy cars. Some already have, like the Mazda3 which can be had with leather, Xenon headlights, a navigation system, auto-headlights and auto-windshield wipers, etc. So even though the more expensive cars are getting more expensive, a lot of their goodies will being to filter down anyway.
I guess youre right,,, but there is one thing we can do..
by nutmuffin - 9/29/05 10:43 PM In reply to: Good point. but... by MPowerF1Yes, we all know all about the state of the economy in the US, our wages are going up at pennies a year but the cost of everything is soaring..
They do have a right to make a profit, but we have a right not to have to pay the same price for a good car, that we do to put a down payment on a house.!
Do you know what I spent the last week doing ?
I surfed the net looking at the vehicle safety figures for different SUVs. My insurance agent told me that there are some cars, which because of how they are built,the ones built mostly of metal, less plastics and with roll bar cages, will get me a 10, 20 or 30 % discount.
So off I went to various car sites,looking for an suv that would garnish me the biggest insurance savings. and low and behold, I found that the cars which would save me the most,also cost in the neighborhood of $20-30,000 even 40,00 bucks !
The cars that cost the least, got a zero safety rating and would cost me More in insurance.
So now, my dilema, do I pay less up front ,pay more insurance and hope I dont get killed in a crash?
Or, do I pay waay more than i can afford,pay less insurance, hope the car doesnt get repossed, but secure in the knowledge that if I get hit, I will likely be safe?
Then I started thinking,.. the car comapanies really have us where they want us dont they ?
Safety or cost ?
Why cant a company like Ford, build an suv which is under 15,000, which is as safe as a Toyota Highlander ? (30% vehicle safety rating discount, by the way)
Reason; Profit..
They make the cars overseas where labor is cheaper, they use alot of plastics, and they still charge
more ! How much profit do they need ?
I actually give Kudos to Hyundai , opening their first plant down south, USA !
Its so unusual in the auto industry that they
feature the auto plant in their TV ads !
The only thing we working people can do is revolt by buying cars with less luxury features , which are less expensive , so that they get the point that we dont need bells and whistles, we need cost and safety.
Then again,what the heck do I know?
| Forum legend: | |
 |
Locked thread |
 |
Moderator |
 |
CNET staff |
 |
Samsung staff |
 |
Norton Authorized Support team |
 |
AVG staff |
 |
Windows Outreach team |
 |
Dell staff |
 |
Intel staff |
