Community Newsletter: Q&A: 5/6/05 What's safe and legal to download using a file-sharing program?
- 5/12/05 2:39 PM
Heh
by strickjh2005 - 5/6/05 1:19 PM In reply to: Don't do it by ski-the-edgeNot if you use an anti virus prog.
So yeah, how in the hell is a reformat and reinstall of windows more expensive than a new comp?
What the hell are you shoving down the throats of these people? lol.
btw, F the Riaa
(NT) Reinstall
by ski-the-edge - 5/6/05 3:30 PM In reply to: Heh by strickjh2005I started off always doing the format, install, configure, install, configure, install, configure, install until I got it back. I had quite a few MCSE techs that were a lot smarter and faster than I was, and they were the ones who taught me how not to make a client really angry by submitting a fixit bill for more than the cost of a box.
Format and Install the OS is the easy part if you are lucky. If we could do it on our bench and do other jobs concurrently, we could do that for maybe $100.00 You still have to install and configure all the software and then set up the networking and e-mail. Clients don't think about the fact that a new machine is going to need networking and e-mail. They just see the bill and go ballistic.
As far as your remark regarding the RIAA; I do think they rip off the artist and the public. That doesn't make it right to further rip off the artist. I bet you don't do your work for free.
A Word Back from those WHO do use p2p, and make it work
by zed2010 - 5/7/05 3:39 AM In reply to: Additional advice from our members (section 1) by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Kazaa - gay, sharezilla - gay in fact any on thses types of p2p are crap anyone using them deserves whatever happens. Now I am not trying to antagonise anyone but it seems so one sided. Firstly, 90% of the p2p downloads are illegal sotfware, music, etc. Secondly, 65% of total WWW bandwidth is reputedly used by, mainly, BitTorrent and then the lesser and in my opinion inferior p2p clients. Now yes we know we shouldn't download stuff that we don't have the right to but when you are told by people that they work for the MPAA and then THEY upload stuff it kinda makes you wonder what's the point of worrying? If the PEOPLE who are supposed to be stopping you can do then us mere mortals can do it. I have used bittorrent for over a year and I ain't afraid to say it, hell if anyone from MPAA/RIAA wants they can send me an email. IThe reason me and my mates all use this software is because there are too many people out there only interested in $$££$$££. For example, Titanic made over $1 billion yet that was with piracy so how much money would it have made without piracy? and yet we have third world poverty and disasters galore yet where are these companies putting there millions? Back into the pockets of fat-ass company directors and managers. Yeah sure they deserve to be paid but, and he is an example, BBC television once asked the guys who did Jurassic Park to help with a dinosaur series, with cgi etc. So the part they wanted produced was to be 4 minutes long, and what did the company reply? $30000 per second. £30000 PER SECOND, hell I have seem amatuers who can do it almost as good on there home pc's and they'd have taken $300 for the whole thing. There are too many people out there wanting more and more yet WE are the ones responsible. Look at it this way my friends, you go to the shop and pay XX amount for something, like maybe 10 million other people, making the companies 1oo's of millions. Yet any company that makes money will tell you losing ten million customers can be devastating, it's like here in the uk. People are sometimes so far up their, well you get the idea, that they will pay anything asked and these people are the one's who support MPAA/RIAA. Anyway back the p2p; they will never stop p2p, yeah they wrap it up and make it sound nice but at the end of the day, given the option would you a) pay $10-20/£10-15 for a cd or b) wait two days on a p2p network like CRAPZZA or c) get it on a couple of hours on bittorrent, free? {and be honest people, even the staff of MPAA/RIAA do it} TO THE MPAA/RIAA: you want us all to stop? then reduce your pay checks and that of over exxagerated superstars and put US out of business because, my enemies, in Scotland and Canada you have NO SAY, NO CONTROL. Also may I take this time to point out that I don't make copies and sll them and then buy drugs and terrorist weapons; this is to sway you from the fact that half the terrorist world got trained/educated in US. Oh yeah and I get legal aid so I'm ready to go to court anytime you want 
It will be interesting to see if this post is allowed.
oh yeah a word from those who know
A general call to all P2P-users
As of late the MPA's and RIAA's of the world are claiming that we are robbing them of their rightly earned money and are trying to find ways to legally put and end to it. The scare tactics have been fruitful, it would seem as they keep getting settlements out of court and probably make a profit out of it.
This campaign of theirs, of course, isn't to target and eradicate filesharing as much as an attempt to control the market and where our money goes. Most of us feel that they should very well look into availability and affordable prices instead of claiming higher moral ground. The wealthiest nowadays decide what we shall listen to and watch, using staggering PR campaigns, and most releases are "format" productions, where talent and creativity comes second only to business concept and money.
Ironically, dramatic theatres, opera houses and so on are desperately trying to find an audience among the "common" people, as it's seemed like high-brow, and here we are dealing with a situation where the production companies are working towards a dangerous inaccessibility for regular Joes. It is a natural thing that we want to be able to watch the movies and listen to the music, it has always been and always will be. Hence we turn to filesharing, and/or borrow CD's from our friends and so on.
Availability and affordable prices.
How many of you have bought a CD, watched a movie that has turned out to be less than satisfactory? How many has felt cheated of a night out at the movies, going there following posters and trailers for a big box-office release that turned out to be one of those "let's save the movie company a few bucks by fooling people into watching this dud during the first weekend"? How many get sick to their stomachs hearing about revenue losses and then be treated to a "Cribs" episode on MTV? The production companies has the audacity to say that we are using people's creativity and talent, without paying for it. Well - guess what - most P2P'ers actually DO BUY THE PRODUCTS THEY LIKE.
We continue to see fantasy figures of what kind of revenues the production companies would have had, weren't it that the products were obtainable online. It's complete and utter nonsense, of course, as they seem to be oblivious to the highly human trait that they sport themselves, are shared by everybody: The Power Of Owning. Everybody wants to own things. Having a pirated copy NEVER exchanges the glory of a movie theatre or having a box bought and paid for, that prides your bookshelves.
And to prove this, a general call out to all that has shared a file, downloaded something from online or think that the prices are outrageous in general, let's send a message to the powers that be.
***********************************************************************
The last week in May - 24th, 2005 up until and including 31st - let's show how much money we are spending on them in reality already by denying them it. Don't go to the movies, don't buy any entertainment products during that week.
***********************************************************************
This is not to be confused as "go pirate everything you can find as the production companies are common robbers" but as a way to show that we are indeed supporting them already, so stop fighting us!
Spread the word everywhere you can think of.
-P2P United
Bit torrent is definitely the best
by marksg - 5/7/05 4:22 PM In reply to: A Word Back from those WHO do use p2p, and make it work by zed2010I've been using BT since it first came out (3-4 years)I have never contracted a virus or had any problems (other than physical wearing out of hard drives). Any decent Bit torrent site 1)Requires you to register (anonymous participation is a thing of the past) 2)Keep a list of non-tradeable artists-those that have expressly stated they do not allow electronic trading of their music 3)Enforce the wishes of those artists 4)Never allow sharing of copyrighted material (this excludes bootleg recordings that can be purchased in less than reputable shops, flea markets, etc (sharing them is known as "liberating" them and takes money away from the dirtbags that make money on someone elses talent and hard work. Bit torrent sites are fan clubs and promote fan interaction that enhances the artists fan base. The management of Dave Mathews Band has just recently affirmed exactly as I say and encourage taping of concerts and the sharing of said recordings! A bigger problem is that most cable isp's do not allow file sharing (this is in the TOC agreement you receive at initial subsciption)DSL's for the most part allow the practice. Dial up is not practical due to file size.
I used to be on the fence about it-Not anymore.
by rickscript - 5/9/05 8:18 AM In reply to: A Word Back from those WHO do use p2p, and make it work by zed2010I used to be able to see both sides of this issue and think that both had valid points. Let me say that I have never personally downloaded a single song in P2P fashion. I still generally believe that artists deserve to be compensated for their creations but I really don't believe that any of them will suffer immense hardships from whatever revenues are lost by P2P.
I guess it has been a combination of things that has changed my view of this; the staggering sums of money that professional athletes are getting completely turned me off of pro sports and entertainers are now falling into the same category. Movie studios who play games with accounting in order to maximize their profits on a film that, according to their books actually LOST money and now that take their productions to other countries to rake in even more profits is another. But the biggest thing is this. My girlfriend used our second computer to download some music from Kazaa Lite (Music that she already owned and paid for on LP). Four months ago, she got hit with a wave of really nasty malware that took the computer down so bad it eventually trashed the hard drive and resulted in a machine that had to be almost completely rebuilt. I did some research and checking into this and found sources that claimed the RIAA was actually behind alot of the malware and computer threatening virus/trojans that were circulating on the P2P realm. They did it through a third party (thus leaving them an "out" when discovered) who disguised the infected files as normal music files. That totally swayed my feelings. Whatever moral high ground they may have had before, was instantly eroded and put them on the same level as the worst of the virus designers and those who perpetrate denial of service attacks. Enforcing copyrights in courts of law is one thing; deliberately destroying someones computer in a chicken-sh_t way is quite another. Nothing excuses this and I now feel great whenever I read or hear about P2P activities thriving. I have just gotten this machine fixed and I may even make it a sacrificial lamb for downloading music, at least til I recover the money this whole episode cost me.
Now you're on the wrong side of the fence
by eric90230 - 5/9/05 6:42 PM In reply to: I used to be on the fence about it-Not anymore. by rickscript>> I really don't believe that any of them will suffer immense hardships from whatever revenues are lost by P2P. <<
Sorry, but if I steal money from a rich guy, I’m a thief.
>> found sources that claimed the RIAA was actually behind alot of the malware and computer threatening virus/trojans <<
And you chose to believe it. Anyway, I’m reminded of the guy who hurt a burglar in the course of trying to stop the burglar from stealing, and the burglar sued him. Do you admire that burglar?
I’ve downloaded songs in the past, but I never tried to say it was ethical. Now I pay as I go.
Facts and non-facts
by zed2010 - 5/11/05 2:42 AM In reply to: Now you're on the wrong side of the fence by eric90230>> I really don't believe that any of them will suffer immense hardships from whatever revenues are lost by P2P. <<
Sorry, but if I steal money from a rich guy, I’m a thief.<<
and what if the rich guy stole from others? yes we are no better than the riaa but we download stuff to show that this is just another greedy organisation.
There is no such this as loss for most of these artists and companies as the target is made up to start with. I mean if certain artists can get paid £100million for 4 albums then this is the record label own problem as they have to get back that money but for starters there is no singer out there worth £100 million, like in the sports world none of them are worth the millions they get. It's all about taking from the little guy and giving to the big guy, the difference with BT and p2p networks is we are taking from the big guy and giving back to the little people. There are too many ignorant and non-caring people in the world stuck in there sheep like existence to realise that WE make these companies exist. These companies need to remember that it's US that give them the life need to exist and as sson as people all over the world realise this the better. We only get charged the prices we do because WE pay it. Just because the dates is in the 00's don't mean you can cause a revolution, for too long htese companies have dictated to us what THEY want. Time to make a stand people, keep paying the stupid prices and we'll end up with £30/$59 albums, look at clothes and other goods for example: calvin klein denims UK price £99 US price $20. The reason we in UK pay so much is cos of the snob culture paying the askin price. It's the same with cd's and videos. We all know the rough price it costs to make the disc, put the music on it, package it, distribute it and it comes nowhere near the £14.99 per unit that we get asked to pay. Oh, and the UK's government is worse as they tax about 80% of the cd. As soon as we get prices dropping to a reality price then we'll stop our p2p, at least I will but when I have the chance to pay penny's over £15 I will ALWAYS choose penny's.
>> found sources that claimed the RIAA was actually behind alot of the malware and computer threatening virus/trojans <<
And you chose to believe it. Anyway, I’m reminded of the guy who hurt a burglar in the course of trying to stop the burglar from stealing, and the burglar sued him. Do you admire that burglar?
you're being pernickety, (can't spell fastitious??). The example you have used should only get one answer and that's why you chose it. anyway are you RIAA? Can you disprove this theory? Thought not.
I’ve downloaded songs in the past, but I never tried to say it was ethical. Now I pay as I go.<<
prove it. name the sites you use and don't just quote ones you know. I know out of about 300 net friends only 3 use proper pay as you go sites and this is out of fear of MPAA/RIAA. And anyway it just goes to show if iTunes can sell albums at $5 and up this shows how much we are being ripped off. let me ask you: was robin hood a criminal or a good guy doing the right thing? was the sheriff of nottingham just doing his job or abusing his power?
power trip
by MichaelF - 5/11/05 7:28 AM In reply to: Facts and non-facts by zed2010So your Robin Hood are you? Fact is that CD's are not a necessity, it is not food on your plate or a roof over your head. You do not steal music for altruistic reasons but because you can, and your efforts to rationalise it are to appease your own conscience.
You are right that the prices are set because we are prepared to pay for it, this applies to nearly everything in life and if we decided not to pay double because it has a brand name on it then the companies would drop the prices. This is simple supply side economics in a free market economy and is not an excuse for me to steal a pair of Reeboks. This is exactly what you are doing, it is just harder to find you.
Yes some artists make a lot of money, but for every rich artist there are 12 that can't make a living, and this is only making it harder for them. Would you work for free? Do you think that your efforts deserve compensation? Do you do your job for purely altruistic reasons or do you work to live as well as loving it?
Yes it is cheaper from iTunes, but not for altruistic reasons but because you are downloading an electronic copy. There is no overhead per download, no manufacturing costs, no wholesaler, no retailer, no supply chain of people with families to feed and provide for. Most record shop retailers struggle to make a living.
Honesty is sadly missing from this discussion, if something is to expensive then your choice is to do without it, we make these choices every day, prioritising our funds and it is all part of being a responsible moral adult.
Michael
Right On
by ski-the-edge - 5/11/05 9:17 AM In reply to: power trip by MichaelFYou hit the point really well; Music is food for the soul, but not necessary to live.
Stealing is stealing, no matter what the size. I would be inclined to forgive it a bit if done as part of a political statement where one believed that lines of morality had been crossed and this was a last resort. Such is not the case in the music industry; you can vote with your wallet.
Paying exhorbitant prices for things encourages more people to get into the viscious loop. If you feel the price is too high; don't buy. If enough people do this, the price will adjust to the demand.
The price of some things, like medical care, are totally outrageous and we should all be involved politically to try and change this, but I don't notice many people stealing stuff from hospitals. I do see a few people trying to address it politically and this is a good thing.
It is also a matter of priorities. How much $ is one spending on designer clothes, gas for the SUV, a house much larger than one needs, etc. Balance this with the desire for music, and make the choice.
Right Off
by zed2010 - 1/28/06 10:59 AM In reply to: Right On by ski-the-edgeI agree stealing is stealing but I can say almost anyone in the world has at some point, whether it be a biscuit from mother's table, a cd from a store, a gig of music, it's all stealing and we should be ashamed we've done it but are we?
"Paying exhorbitant prices for things encourages more people to get into the viscious loop. If you feel the price is too high; don't buy. If enough people do this, the price will adjust to the demand."
-
not necessarily true mate and let's talk about different countries, you get an album from itunes at $5, that's about £3 to me, yet I buy same album and it's £14.99.
So if 250 million americans buy the album you honestly think that UK shop retailer would sell at same price when they can rip me off more by keeping the prices static cos of the over-exuberance of american music buyers? All these companies, in fact every company in the world needs to remember something, WE, the people made them and now they are finding out through p2p etc that we are taking them back.
sorry for the delay in replying
by zed2010 - 1/28/06 10:45 AM In reply to: power trip by MichaelFsorry for the time difference in me replying but I been offline and busy as hell.
"So your Robin Hood are you? You do not steal music for altruistic reasons but because you can, and your efforts to rationalise it are to appease your own conscience."
-
When have I stole music? If I find anything on the net that says free then who am I not to take advantage? And I don't need to please my own conscience, hell I DEMAND the mpaa/riaa or the UK equivelant to come to my house and take action. I have nothing to fear nor do I care.
"Yes some artists make a lot of money, but for every rich artist there are 12 that can't make a living, and this is only making it harder for them. Would you work for free?"
-
While I do know of some bands I can honestly say if one is rich and 12 aren't that's there problems. Not every band is good enough and why pay max price to find out? I do work for free and have done for 2 years, so next time it's advisable to think of your statements before stating such ****.
"Yes it is cheaper from iTunes, but not for altruistic reasons but because you are downloading an electronic copy."
-
Well maybe it's time these retailers seized the technology and make it available for you to take your iPod, rio or whatever mp3 player you have to the store and get your e-copy of whatever you desire, sure you still have the stores and running costs but they'd be greatly reduced, less staff, automated systems, no printing costs etc. Again, nothing I can do about it nor care.
"Honesty is sadly missing from this discussion, if something is to expensive then your choice is to do without it, we make these choices every day, prioritising our funds and it is all part of being a responsible moral adult."
-
We also have the choice to get what we'd like at whatever the cost, morally or not. There are many things in the world worse than P2P and needing more attention but nothing gets done, that to me is morally wrong and worse than me getting 0's and 1's on my pc.
The saying "we'll have to agree to disagree" comes to mind.
Opinions
by eric90230 - 5/13/05 6:30 PM In reply to: Facts and non-facts by zed2010>> and what if the rich guy stole from others? yes we are no better than the riaa but we download stuff to show that this is just another greedy organisation. <<
Excuses, excuses. Is the rich guy a thief in your confused argument, or is he just “greedy”? As if wanting free CD’s wasn’t greedy.
>> there is no singer out there worth £100 million <<
So you get to decide who is worth what? Karl Marx would be proud of you.
>> none of them are worth the millions they get <<
Sounds like envy to me.
>> It's all about taking from the little guy and giving to the big guy <<
No, It’s all about paying as you go.
>> the difference with BT and p2p networks is we are taking from the big guy <<
That would make you a thief.
>> and giving back to the little people <<
I suppose it’s possible you’re distributing free CD’s to the public on street corners, but I doubt it. Anyway, that would still be wrong, since it’s ill-gotten gains.
>> We only get charged the prices we do because WE pay it. <<
Yep. Zillions of people freely choosing to pay. Capitalism is good.
>> for too long htese companies have dictated to us what THEY want. <<
Um, you just said we only get charged the prices we do because WE pay it. So who’s doing the dictating, us or them?
>> We all know the rough price it costs to make the disc <<
But do we all know that cost doesn’t control price? I refer you yet again to your own quote, we only get charged the prices we do because WE pay it. The free market controls prices.
>> As soon as we get prices dropping to a reality price then we'll stop our p2p <<
Horse manure. Are you predicting the price will change to pennies? LOL
>> The example you have used should only get one answer and that's why you chose it. <<
Yet you didn’t answer it. Brave. LOL
>> Can you disprove this theory? <<
What theory?
>> Thought not. <<
Apparently.
>> prove it. name the sites you use <<
http://www.real.com/dmm/rhapsody/?src=tf_ov_rhp_rhp&GCID=C11731x009
http://www.apple.com/itunes/
You’re looking for proof in a debate on ethics? LOL
>> let me ask you: was robin hood a criminal or a good guy doing the right thing? was the sheriff of nottingham just doing his job or abusing his power? <<
From what I remember of the legend of Robin Hood, he was rebelling against a dictatorship, and helping actual poor people. Not relevant to getting free CD's. Nice try, though, Robin Jr.! LOL
Pay as you go!
A thief is a thief is a thief
by mrketchfish - 6/21/05 9:26 AM In reply to: Opinions by eric90230Your reply is 100% correct.
There's really no grey area here. If you steal my intellectual property, you are a thief. Most songwriters, even successful ones, take decades to build a catalog that will provide them with a decent living.
I hold the copyright on over 100 songs. Occasionally, I actually make a few dollars on my catalog. Very few. I use this money as supplemental support for my family but it makes up less than 5% of my $50K annual income. I have 6 kids and stealing my property takes food off their plates. Don't tell ME that I don't deserve to get paid for my work, tell my kids.
Even if it was just the record labels you were stealing from, it wouldn't be right, but it's not. It's the little guy that deserves to be compensated for their work.
Please don't steal folks, it just isn't right.
Nice reply
by zed2010 - 1/28/06 11:23 AM In reply to: Opinions by eric90230>>Excuses, excuses. Is the rich guy a thief in your confused argument, or is he just “greedy”? As if wanting free CD’s wasn’t greedy.<<
-
you could say they are excuses but I never said I wanted free cd's, I said until things change with cd prices I wouldn't pay. this ain't the same as saying I want free, if they were cheaper sure I'd buy them, you can never beat a genuine copy.
>>So you get to decide who is worth what? Karl Marx would be proud of you.<<
-
Miscontrued my words or maybe I used the wrong ones. as for Karl Marx he wouldn't care, he's dead.
The envy part I concede as I can honestly say I have never been rich and would love to be. Only rich people don't think of money cos they have it, try swapping places with me and we'll soon see how many understand better my arguement.
>>Yep. Zillions of people freely choosing to pay. Capitalism is good.<<
-
well we all know about that don't we, freely choosing to pay, there is no such thing mate. it's case of "you got money? no, well f**k off. Next, you got money, yeah we here you go now f**k off" Those with money get more money and those without have to resort to stealing, which is wrong but if I saw you with a case full of money and you drop $100/£100 whatever I sure as hell wouldn't give you it back. I believe the old proverb "finders keepers" to be appropriate, so am I stealing if you lost it in the first place?
ok going off topic now time to return.
>>Um, you just said we only get charged the prices we do because WE pay it. So who’s doing the dictating, us or them?<<
-
I refer you here for my answer to that
http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-10149-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=102069&messageID=1704231
>>>> As soon as we get prices dropping to a reality price then we'll stop our p2p<<
Horse manure. Are you predicting the price will change to pennies? LOL<<<<
-
I prefer ********, sounds more manly. as for the price if the government stopped taking over £9 per cd (album) they would in deed be pennies, like four hundred and ninety nine pennies
in regards tot he site links you posted good for you supporting the artists, however I feel agrieved that some people will turn up their noses at a drugged up person in the street yet we pay £$£ or should I say you guys, morally agree to pay for other's drug habits, protitutes etc and you tell me what I do is morally wrong? I don't fund anyone's drugs but my own (only cannabis), I don't help protitution, I don't train terrorists with my ill gotten gains from illegally selling copied music which everyone seems to think happens. as a p2p user and downloader in my current form all I get is a letter asking to cease and desist or face a fine, so while I admit 'stealing' I am not passin on anything I obtain nor do I profit from it as then I would be charged and jailed, know the law and beat it.
goodnight peepz
Zed2010 AKA Alex You Are Full of IT
by ShotGums - 1/30/06 11:27 AM In reply to: A Word Back from those WHO do use p2p, and make it work by zed2010Well well well, as someone who knows you quite well i find the post by you a complete joke, escpecially the copy and pastes of other peoples views and writings, newsflash folks he didnt write this post, but i will address some of the thngs he has put, his bitterness to the fat cats making there millions is just that, bitterness that he cant get of his stoner ass for 10 secounds and pay his kid a slight bit of attention becuase he hes too obsessed with bit torrent communities, climbing the staff ladder hey zed, if one of these companies that you are ripping off offered you a job at a PC all day you would join the "common robbers" yourself and you know it.
Lets talk about the money shall we, the quality of (most) movies are going up, with this comes more specialized work thus the high rise in everything,these facts run thru the whole entertainment sectors, excellent production of music isnt cheap, and why the hell should it be, we all are in this world to take what we can get, and you cant knock the industries for getting what they can, and yes this is were torrenting and other p2p come into play, they are charging high, so we take what we can, its the old chestnut sticking it to the man, yes ill save yuo the reply, i have run and owned torrent sites myself which you have leeched and played a part in destroying (am i wrong) me thinks not.
The MPAA are not claiming that you are robbing them of the hard earned money, they are claiming that you are robbing there clients of their hard and money, andyou know what they are right, but this wont stop me and if it wasnt for the fact you cant pay your isp bill cos you have let your sad exestence go down the pan due to hash and the rejection of your kid im sure it wouldnt stop you.
The fact of the matter is this, as a torrent user myself is a matter of balance, if the whole world comes in up in arms and sticks it to the man and does nothing but filesharing, the consiquence will be albeit eventually, catastrophic, productions are suffering and will continue to suffer as long as this is happening, its a matter of balance, im not saying dont do it, im saying just give your support were you can, theres bands out there that dont deserve to be robbed by the file sharing communities because there record labels are milking their talents, theres independant film comanies trying to make artistic films instead of hollywood jokes, surely these people deserve support
[Edited by: admin] for profanity. -Lee Koo CNET Community
| Forum legend: | |
 |
Locked thread |
 |
Moderator |
 |
CNET staff |
 |
Samsung staff |
 |
Norton Authorized Support team |
 |
AVG staff |
 |
Windows Outreach team |
 |
Dell staff |
 |
Intel staff |
