Computer newbies: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser
INCREDIBLY Revealing/Shocking LINK.....
by RussH - 10/19/05 1:26 PM In reply to: Read this... by MendietaI just visited this link using Netscape 7.2 (which is a bit archaic anyway) AND the most up to date version of IE with all of the latest patches (security and otherwise) installed. Truly it is shocking to see how non-compliant the Microsoft browser is. To any non-beliver, just take a side by side tour with IE on one side and any mozilla-based browser on the other, and you will see for yourself. IE fails miserably to render properly coded pages time after time. In the past, I always blamed mozilla for web sites that didn't work. Now it looks like Microsoft has been the culprit all along, not surprising considering Microsoft' consistently anti-competitive stance approach to market manipulation.
I work on several computers and normally use Firefox. The basic reason is that FF has many more useful features than IE.... AND in my experience (which does not include on-line gaming,) FF wins the speed contest time after time. Heres a list of very useful FF features:
1) Tabbed browsing - far superior to opening multiple instances of a browser in that you can see details on each tab where separate instances quickly lose these details if you use toolbars on the taskbar.
Here's a great tabbed browsing trick: If you have an organized list of bookmarks (i.e. create a folder and placed related links therein), you can open all links in separate tabs with a single mouse-click.
Though I've never checked, my bet is the hit on system resources is less for tab sessions that for separate individual instances of the program. I have had as many as thirty tabs open at the same time which researching various topics and absolutely no OS hiccups.
2) FF has Password management - You can password protect the password list; delete individual sites/password; reveal passwords associated with sites. None of this is possible with the current version of IE
3) FF has cookie management drilling down to individual cookies - more of the same - IE has some of these features but not all...
4) FF has pop-up blocker management capability
5) FF has web-site software installation management
6) Downloads start when you click the link/download, not when you name/save the file as is the case with IE. The net effect is that you save time with FF downloads. Often by the time I get the save to location and/or name listed for the download, the actual download is already completed.
7) FF has a download manager - IE does not.
8) Returning to the original point - IE has an archaic or deliberately non-compliant rendering engine. That web sites actually work with it is a testament to what is wrong in the world of computing. To those who have no bones to pick with Microsoft, think about how Microsoft bends and shapes your computing environment to suit their needs rather than the other way around. The admittedly "big tail" is wagging the dog.....
PS...
by RussH - 10/19/05 2:06 PM In reply to: Read this... by MendietaThe link I referred to is containg in the Read this... post.
Here it is again:
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/wrongWithIE/
Avant is great; FF is faster sometimes; both are necessary
by kosimov - 3/6/05 4:23 AM In reply to: Firefox is O.K But it is not the best. by AcaykathOn my system, (which is overdue for a complete re-install of XP pro and all other programs), IE is so damaged that, if I click on a link in another browser which insists on calling IE, I get so much junk on my screen so fast, that I must use Task Manager to shut down every browser instance I can find, and re-start Avant or Firefox, depending on which I am using. It is very aggravating! I have scanned IE with every piece of software I can dig up, and have tried editing the registry line by line, manually, but I cannot clean enough out of IE to make it useable. The interesting thing is, I CAN use Avant Browser, which uses that same IE program, with no trouble at all, as long as I don't allow IE to be called. That is an indication to me of how well Avant is programmed; it can even use a damaged version of IE and prevent it from doing anything wrong!
I use both Avant Browser (which is very friendly and easy, especially when I "surf" a lot) and FireFox, depending on what I am doing. If I wish to, for example, "bounce around" on ebay, clicking on links to examine products, read messages, etc., I prefer FireFox because it seems to re-draw much faster when I use the "BACK" command to return to a page from which I followed a link; it also seems to receive and draw a page faster than AB does, overall. However, FF is more like using a clutch and stick transmission, whereas, AB is more like using an automatic transmission. Each has its place.
I am not sure if I could make a list of strengths, weaknesses, features, etc., which shows one to be better than the other, but, I would not wish to give up one of these two excellent browsers and use only one of them for everything. Since they are both "free", I don't need to worry about using them both. However, if I had to make that kind of choice, I believe I would go with FireFox. The superior performance ultimately would win out in my case; sometimes, FF will load and disply two or three pages by the time AB or IE can do just one page, in my non-scientific, non-controlled, non-standard, subjective testing experience.
I have been using the Internet since Mosaic first came out, so I am fairly competent. I am also an electrical engineer and sometimes programmer; using a computer is as easy for me as scratching my head when I don't know what is going on with my latest creation. My wife, on the other hand, was a complete "newbie" when I recently set her up on a laptop. She began using IE "because it was there", but, when (sometimes extremely offensive pornographic) junk started popping up on the screen so much that she could not use the Internet, I installed AB and FF on her system. She tends to use AB because it is more like IE, and she is familiar with that. She is not as demanding as I am, and does not care about the relatively small performance increase of FF which I find important; mostly, she just wants to use the computer for simple Internet access and does not "surf" much. Anything which allows her to get the job done without learning new skills or attitudes, etc., will be her preference every time; she is totally opposite to my way of doing things, thank goodness!
I don't believe it is necessary to have the available browsers "fight it out" until only the superior browser survives; that mentality, unfortunately, has been promoted so much by MSOFT's practices that we sometimes forget that it is good for us to have more than one program to choose from for a given application. I would hate to see ANY of the competing browsers so dominate the market that the others would be forced out, such as happened a few years ago between MS and Netscape! viva la difference (sp?)
As has already been mentioned, it is perhaps good to have IE out there as the main target for the nut cases who write virus programs to focus on; maybe it will keep them busy so they won't attack the other browsers with as much vigor as they have shown in their IE attacks so far.
Two browsers are better than one! (Or three or four or five are perhaps even better!) Any browser which is not good for an acceptable number of people simply won't get used, and it will "go away" if the authors of it do not change it until it suits the needs of their target audience. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work? Seems pretty good to me.
But of course, it is also good to have forums such as this, and to have debate, and to have so many knowledgeable people share their experiences with the rest of us, so we can make more intelligent choices. Or at least, so we can avoid looming problems before they damage our data and do us in.
Interesting point you made here
by TONI H - 3/6/05 5:30 AM In reply to: Avant is great; FF is faster sometimes; both are necessary by kosimov>>>>I would hate to see ANY of the competing browsers so dominate the market that the others would be forced out, such as happened a few years ago between MS and Netscape!>>>>
IE wouldn't have been able to dominate the market from Netscape IF Netscape hadn't insisted on charging $50 for a browser that MS was willing to give away for free....AND Netscape didn't bother to get competitive in the technology department at all and made very few updates or upgraded their browser to please their users for years. AOL didn't even bother to switch to Netscape as their browser until LONG after they purchased the browser WELL into Netscape's lawsuit against IE for taking their customers away from them.
If a product wants to compete, it HAS to keep moving forward, and Netscape didn't do that for far too long. They only recently overhauled their program when they decided to also go into the ISP business or I wonder if it would still be at the version 6 mode of creativity.
In the meantime, Mozilla kept improving their product behind the scenes and came out with Firefox recently. Firefox is gaining in popularity but it will be quite a while yet before pages are rendered correctly for it because so many people's and company's websites are geared mainly for IE...due to the fact that Netscape sucked for so long no matter what way you try to make excuses for it, and most people didn't use Mozilla, and Opera has virtually died off.
None of the browsers make concessions for bad or incorrect coding on websites except IE.....and as long as there are website designers who actually appreciate the fact that even if they've made a mistake with their code the page still renders correctly for the most popular browser, not only will people stay with IE because it's forgiving, but it will either force website designers to get waayy better at the coding or it will force the other browsers to not be so unbending with regard to the mistakes.
I use Netscape 4.79 and 6.0 and Firefox to test my website pages only. I don't use anything but IE on a personal level. I haven't downloaded or installed Netscape 7 (not sure if I even CAN without going with them as my ISP to be honest). And ALL of my pages come through with various degrees of correct rendering with Netscape and Firefox. Making adjustments in my code to get it 'right' in Netscape and IE make things worse in Firefox...making adjustments to the code to get it 'right' in Firefox and IE never seems to work at all because once I get Firefox right, IE looks like crap.
Like I said before.....my computer is here for MY entertainment and if I have to work real hard to get what I want to play nice with the other browsers that don't seem to want to be flexible, the fun goes away quickly. I've been looking into the CSS issues that are supposed to make working with my website easier....and nearly every single usernet site I've subscribed to regarding CSS has hundreds of emails every day complaining that CSS just doesn't work right in IE for various things and huge workarounds have to implemented to the codes. CSS may be the biggest headache there is right now with IE and website designers.....and hopefully IE7 will be easier to deal with regarding those issues. Website designers have found ways to maintain their sites effectively for a long time without CSS, so I can, too for now.
As far as I'm concerned, every change MS has made in IE has actually been moving forward and made it better than the previous versions. Wish I could say the same for the other browsers though.
Just my opinions....As for having two or three or more browsers installed like you suggested. Have you ever heard that more is not always better? It seems to me that the more similar programs you have installed the greater the risk that they are going to bump heads, overwrite files you need for one of the other programs, and trouble-shooting becomes a nightmare. KISS is my motto. You don't need five photo or cd burning programs anymore than you need more than two browsers.
TONI
Newbies will be just fine.
by italiantech - 2/25/05 10:12 AM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceAs many of us know, you cannot define newbies as computer illiterate or worse incapable.
I've been working almost 20 years with windows based computers, I used Macs and Linux and I tried so many software programs I can't even count it.
I have also been a computer tech around the same amount of time and build too many computers.
FIREFOX is just fine for anyone. Every browser has its pro and cons but when it comes to give my friends/customers a suggestion on which browser to use. IE comes always last ( and kept only because there still some websites that FORCE you to use IE ).
Netscape is heavy, Opera is my preferred since its first release but FIREFOX is veeery good too and I keep using it more day after day.
Conclusion ? IE had shown, shows and will always show bugs, defects, problems, weird flicks...and to fix them sometime is a real waste of time. IE is also the most used vector for all kind of crap from the internet ( viruses, bad scripts and so on ) and somewhat heavy.
Firefox is pretty fast when opening the webpages, good downloads handler and much lighter than IE ( almost half lighter ).
At the end, I have seen some of my computer "illiterate customers", enjoying the surf with Firefox, its easy of use and not too shabby GUI.
And more interest in learning it due to its easy of use than IE which is for them very confusing.
That's all for me now.
I think the key is no loyalty to any brand.
by novawake - 2/25/05 1:52 PM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceI mean, sure, if you like a brand, keep using it. But, I think there is no reason anyone can't try firefox if they want to. It's a small enough program and easy to uninstall even for a newbie(so even if they can't figure out how to uninstall it, it won't take up much space). Sure it has a few bugs, but I love tabs(or eyelashes in the spanish version. So my spanish-speaking friend said, funny enough). I think many of the new features are worth trying out even for a newbie if they want to.
Everyone likes to pick sides. Just look at professional sports like football. I mean we don't "know" the people, but we are quick to pick a team to be loyal to. It's human nature. With software and hardware I think it's good to try try all we want. If we are "fat and happy" and don't want to change, well, generally you are going to miss out. Or, at the least, still be using you 400mhz pentium II machine like my parents. LOL
I disagree
by tbcass - 2/25/05 2:35 PM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceThis is very bad advice. Since newbies are more likely to do the things and go to sites that cause problems they should be required to use Firefox not discouraged from using it. Fire Fox is immune to most of these problems.
RE:newbies shouldn't jump to Firefox browser
by cr8dad - 2/25/05 4:23 PM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceI have been using Firefox for approximately 3 months, maybe more (time splips away doesn't it). I have encountered just one buggy-boo as of this point and I don't consider it to be anything major. I am still using Windows 1st Ed. as well.
I guess I simply have not experienced the problems that skyace has resurrected; that however, does not mean they are not there. Simply, I find Firefox to be a very easy browser to use. Also, the plug-in for blocking ads has been working like a champ.
All of us are obligated, as fellow humans, to caution any newbie about jumping from one place to another to another. However, I have not encountered any reason for Firefox to be singled out as having an unreasonable number of bugs or being difficult to use.
For me IE has its problems and difficulties just like Opera, Netscape, Mozilla and all the rest. In any event, none of us would be where we are today without having gone into the unknown a bit, experienced a few problems and overcome them.
Thanks for listening to an old duffer who started with an Atari 400.
cr8dad
You're obviously not an English major
by Rob Hurley - 2/25/05 4:33 PM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceI've read your posting more than once, and I'm still not entirely clear on what your objection to Firefox is, or why the use of Firefox necessarily precludes the use of IE (for those troublesome non-standards-compliant websites, for example).
To Be A Newbie Or Not To Be A Newbie
by dcmorris - 2/25/05 6:07 PM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyacethat is the question. Or, maybe, the answer.
Or, to rephrase, when is a Newbie not a Newbie?
I think skyace may have been addressing a fairly new Newbie. I consider myself a Newbie and probably always will. However, I am not such a Newbie I can't handle Firefox. On the other hand it wasn't too long ago when my expertise was such I had no business trying anything new.
Some of these threads come on pretty strong in promoting products, programs, etc. However, we Newbies should be cautious before getting on board.
I have friends who have downloaded dozens of files, programs, etc and have no idea what to do with them.
So, let's cut skyace some slack and recognize his/her input has resulted in a beneficial, and sometimes spirited, discussion.
Having said that, it would help if skyace would define the areas in Firefox that he/she feels would be troublesome.
DC
HUH? WHAT?
by Spockva - 2/26/05 4:40 AM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceI am a realtive "newbie" when it come to computer software, more into the nuts and bolts myself, but even I can tell when a program is good, and Firefox is good! Easy to use, easy to install, etc. The only thing I wish it could do is access the video on MSN. I bet there is a way, I just haven't spent the time to find out how.
And if you are like me and really need to, Internet Explorer can be left installed so that everything can be accessed with whatever is needed. I have some sites I go to regularly that only work with IE, so I keep it and then it jumps in when those sites require it. Very convenient.
what problems
by eliz6beth - 2/26/05 7:51 AM In reply to: HUH? WHAT? by SpockvaI am with you 100% spockva.
Liz
life's charmed - until you lose everything
by EquiPro1 - 2/26/05 6:04 AM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceMy "newbie" husband was using IE and ran into nasty spyware and a bad virus. This was before I had had the time to apply my usual: Spybot, Ad-aware, MS Antispyware, Norton Firewall, Pop-up stopper pro. These things got, not only his desktop, but his networked laptop - to a certain extent - as well. At the cost of over $500, and after having lost a good portion of his data, we BOTH switched to Foxfire. I was absolutely amazed. Since switching, I have been able to completely disable my pop-up stopper, my spyware and antivirus software report all the computers as "clean" each time the are run (at this point, once a day on his system), and we have had, virtually, no problems whatsoever with Foxfire.
To those have posted how charmed your life is, or how lucky you must be, you are playing with fire. As things are right now, people using IE are taking a huge risk. It just isn't safe, no matter what you do. If you DON'T take the 10 minutes that it takes to download Firefox, you very well might pay for that with having your computer down for 2 or 3 days and paying through the nose to correct the problems. It's just not worth it.
As for newbies, sending them off on IE nearly guarantees that they will run into some sort of problem, whether it be learning how to use a pop-up stopper or learning how to navigate with the firewall warning, the spyware runs, etc, or they will do what most people do and end up plagued by spyware or worse, the first time they go to one of a million questionable sites that nearly all newbies check out.
I wouldn't send my 6 year old out to play in the middle of a busy intersection no matter how much protective clothing she was wearing. Neither would I send a newbie out onto the internet without Foxfire, no matter how much protection they set up. It's just not safe.
Firefox Bookmark
by dgeorgef - 2/26/05 12:56 PM In reply to: life's charmed - until you lose everything by EquiPro1Someone correctly pointed out that you could put a bookmark on the desktop by exposing the desktop and dragging the url to the desk top to create the bookmark. An additional convenience that Firefox provides is to use its bookmark toolbar located just below the url box. A bookmark can be created on the toolbar by dragging the url onto the toolbar. This is then readily available for quick use later on, and can be deleted when you are done with it.
As for Firefox advantages, how about tabs. They take a little getting used to, but I have become addicted.
And by all means install the extension ieview. This allows you to right-click any page and select "View this page in IE". This takes care of pages that must use IE. I find however that I very rarely need it. I often find that if a page doesn't work properly, it doesn't work in IE either.
Newbie's Report Re: Firefox browser
by JimT - 2/26/05 2:10 PM In reply to: Newbie's shouldn't jump to Firefox Browser by skyaceSince downloading Firefox, and recently upgrading to Firefox 10.1, I have had absolutely nothing but clear sailing, and although I have been working with computers since 1985, I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about -- but I am unafraid to try anything, and usually get the work done, because of a cool composure, something I lacked in the early 1990s.
Now, I really didn't learn anything from the Newbie's beware, and have no idea what bugzilla is all about. My 'puter works like a charm, with the only problem a run-in with avast antivirus, which caused the greatest of problems, until I just uninstalled it, and now, all is well. Been using Firefox for two months, and loving it. Tell me the Bugzilla thing, and maybe it's just some chatter that has been taken care of with the FF10.1 upgrade this am!
All the best!
JimT
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