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Blu-Ray Disk Dead?
by Disk_Crasher - 11/11/08 8:31 AMI have been following audio and video trends for over twenty years, and just recently came across an article called "Is Blu-Ray dead?" I found it very interesting and it stated truths for me that hit home.
1. Blu-Ray discs and players are too expensive?
2. Upscaling DVDs are of comparable quality to Blu-Ray (not equal but close enough for the mass market).
3. FIOS provides all the necessary variety now.
4. Thanks to the Format wars, the introduction of upscaled DVDs caught on and consumers don't want to pay more for very little increase in quality.
I know they are working on bringing prices down, but I feel it is too late after the format wars people have moved on and are accepting upscaled DVDs as the new norm, and are happy about it.
Any thoughts or disagreements on this?
(NT) Oh boy, wait till Josten gets here!
by RustyDallas - 11/11/08 9:18 AM In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead? by Disk_CrasherWAS THAT A STATEMENT OR QUESTION???
by Riverledge - 11/12/08 2:50 PM In reply to: (NT) Oh boy, wait till Josten gets here! by RustyDallasSONY IS ALMOST GIVING AWAY BLU-RAY ON ITS NEW "JS" LINE OF DESKTOPS.[JS-160, JS-190]
PERSONALLY, I FEEL MANY FOLKS ARE MISSING THE BIGGER PICTURE.
BLU-RAY WILL REPLACE THE COMMON DVD AS SOFTWARE MEDIA. WITH ITS TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF DATA STORAGE, BLU-RAY TECHNOLOGY WILL BE THE NEXT MEDIA OF CHOICE.
Best to all,
RIVER.
ANYONE REMEMBER THE "CD" AS THE ULTIMATE MEDIA????????
by Riverledge - 11/12/08 2:56 PM In reply to: WAS THAT A STATEMENT OR QUESTION??? by RiverledgeSORRY, I DIDN'T THINK YOU DID EITHER!!!
RIVER.
A lot of generalizations
by Dan Filice - 11/11/08 10:06 AM In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead? by Disk_CrasherThere seems to be a lot of assumptions about upscaled DVD being "good enough". This makes me ask: "Wasn't 480p good enough? Wasn't 720p good enough? Wasn't 1080i good enough?" I think the whole HD transition is still young and I think the majority of people still haven't enjoyed the benefits of HD. When they do, I think a lot of people might begin to ask how much better can their viewing experience get, and then then this might get people to investigate the BluRay discs. The "mass market" is a tough group, and sometimes they aren't the brightest bulbs in the group. This is why Costco has a very large sign displayed in their TV department that says "You must subscribe to an HD service to get an HD picture on any HDTV."
Oh, now I am hurt,
by ahtoi - 11/11/08 11:55 AM In reply to: A lot of generalizations by Dan Filicethat's hitting below the belt. Are they just tough or are they just not too bright...hehe?
Disk Crasher
by jostenmeat - 11/11/08 11:19 AM In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead? by Disk_CrasherPeople are landing Sony and Pansonic bluray players for $200-250 just this week, with or without free BD promotions.
Bluray is a little over 2 years old right now. About 2.3-2.4 y.o.?
With the above in mind, bluray is cheaper than DVD at the same respective age.
Transformers has the same MSRP b/w the two.
So do all Criterion titles.
As for real world prices, they are a lot more similar than you think. I just watched episode 3 of Band of Brothers last night. People are getting the box set on BD for $45-55. The DVD set is $45. The difference in PQ is night and day. Also greater and more refined color palette, plus DTS Master Audio to boot. And the funny thing is that BoB is not nearly a perfect transfer, with video inconsistency.... but the difference is still profound. The DVD has a poor enough transfer, that if they actually released a VHS version, that would be closer to DVD, than DVD to BD.
Godfather collection $60, if not less. Yep, the Coppola restoration.
Bluray players can already upconvert to 1080p just fine. So, would you rather buy a decent upconerting player for $200, or a decent upconverting player that also plays Bluray for $200?
DVD at the same respective age did not have catalogue titles at $14.95 at the time.
DVD is natively recorded in 480i. Bluray is natively recorded in 1080p. You also get to enjoy 24 fps if your display can handle it. Guess what, current display are making this commonplace. Heck, even with LCD displays, ever wonder why they chose 120hz? common denominator of 60 and 24.
The ONLY stumbling block that I can see for BD is DRM. However, I believe that even this issue is overblown, and this would be the case for any new format that comes about. This includes digital downloads as well, and to be sure, people anticipate DRM issues of a much more sinister nature once that ever becomes commonplace.
I say overblown, because every BD works great for me. I've updated FW only twice. The first time had NOTHING to do with DRM issues, but simply to fix an LFE cut. The last update was only for the hell of it. I updated at versions 1.6 and 2.5. I did not update for 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.8, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 2.5. I never need to.
To say that the increase in picture quality is minimal cannot be farther from the truth. Its not even close. In the slightest. Differences are utterly profound.
Of course, that's easy for me to say with a 159" display in light controlled dedicated home theater, coupled with quality projector.
Anyways, I have maintained for over a year that any purchase of a DVD that is also released on BD is an utter waste of money.
Here are some comparative screen caps from one very trusted source. An AVS poster nmed Xylon. His caps are definitely the most trusted as far as online forums, because his methods are of a purely controlled nature, with the aid of his computer. A few recent threads:
***I have also listed Amazon prices, for comparison. I could shop *as best I could* but I think Amazon is a good indicator of typical price difference******
Baraka. Scroll to post 3 to see DVD vs BD. $17 vs $21.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1082785
Doomsday. $14/$27 vs $27
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1055405
How the West Was Won (improvements are insane). $16/$42 vs $24.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1067722
Iron Man. $23 vs $26
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1070952
______________________________________________________________
From Bluray Stats, presently:
979 titles available
56.91 % are used on a 50 gigabyte disc (and ALWAYS rising)
72.27% come with lossless audio
*The overwhelming majority are selling brand new at less than $20.
http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php
So, Disk_Crasher:
1. Not too expensive.
2. Not even close. Attribute that to ignorance. (some people think using an HDMI cable automatically means "Full HD"! lol
3. uhhhh, no comment....
4. Read #2. Remember DVD is natively 480, and Bluray is natively 1080.
Bluray is only two years old?!?!?!?!
How many of us had DVD players at just two years old?????
***The percentage increase of vertical lines of resolution of BD over DVD is greater than DVD over VHS!!!!
***VHS did not die until 8 years after the release of DVD. So just because DVD is still around does not mean its the better purchase. I would rather buy DVD than VHS if given a choice.
Any thoughts or disagreements on this?
Blu-Ray on life support?
by Disk_Crasher - 11/11/08 1:16 PM In reply to: Disk Crasher by jostenmeatYou all have done quite well in pointing out the strong points of blu-ray, but I feel you do not represent the average consumer, and I am sure you will agree that you are more obsessed? My main emphasis is that as a consumer with a 40" Sony (yes I know that is quite small compared to your TVs) and an upconverting DVD player, I am happy with the quality. In fact I would go so far to say that with my 40 year old eyes, I don't think I would see a difference in quality that I would be willing to shell out big bucks for.
I am pretty confident that the average consumer will not care to pay the difference in quality even if it does come down, because the DVD players and TVs will also continue to come down in price. One item of bias on my part is I have had DVDs from the beginning, and don't plan on replacing the 1500 in my collection.
Here is the article I read, and I do agree with 85% percent of it.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365
One last thing, you are all commended for keeping your tone friendly and professional and respecting others opinions. Didn't say you had to agree of course 
.
by jostenmeat - 11/11/08 1:55 PM In reply to: Blu-Ray on life support? by Disk_CrasherIn fact I would go so far to say that with my 40 year old eyes
Are your eyes REALLY that bad? Did you even look at the screen shots I took the time to link???
I don't think I would see a difference in quality that I would be willing to shell out big bucks for.
Let's see here:
Sony S350 $223
Sony S300 $217
Panasonic BD-35 $259
Panasonic BD-30 $241
Insignia BDP $230
Free shipping on all the above.
The latest Oppo DVD player is $399. It will not hold a candle to a decent BD transfer. Period. Now, if you got 1500 DVDs, I might invest in such a DVD player.
but I feel you do not represent the average consumer, and I am sure you will agree that you are more obsessed?
I've educated the average consumer as much as anyone else. Ask those whom I've personally helped just here. The average consumer doesn't know that you need HD service to get an HD picture. The average consumer thinks that if anything, whether display or receiver, happens to say "HDMI" on it, that they will automatically have native high definition.
I will tell you what WILL happen. Once they buy that HDTV, they WILL WANT hi def. People don't buy 1080p displays to feed 480i sources. They buy 1080p displays to feed 1080p sources.
But its not we who are strangely obsessed. It is YOU
Who else has 1500 DVDs? More to the point, there is no need to replace them. However, for any new release, I still maintain the opinion that buying the DVD version is a waste of money, if the bluray is available. (for those who owned VHS and DVD for a while, wouldn't you agree that buying the VHS would be the improper choice if the DVD version was available?????????????)
If ever Bluray dies and is useless, all of your DVDs will already have shared the same fate.
There is no other physical format even on the horizon.
Now, if you want to wait another 10 years or so for the next best thing, please be my guest. As for me, life is too short.
Remember, physical media sales of film is a multi-billion dollar industry. Bluray does not HAVE to overtake DVD to be a completely successful business. Even with just a relatively small market share, could they live prosperously. However, take a look at Amazon's database, and you will note that its growth is STILL increasing in relation to DVD. In fact, its going to be impossible to maintain THIS GROWTH. It will HAVE to slow down. But the point of all this is that its GROWING, and NOT DYING. sheesh.
Hardly dead. That's like saying that since your 2 year old kid isn't three feet tall yet, he's going to be either a midget, or worse yet, die a quick death. The kid is STILL GROWING, and NOT DYING.
I will repeat, again, probably for about the 5th at time at CNET alone, that Bluray is more affordable than DVD at the same age. Heck, even blank VHS tapes were $20 at first.
Blu ray IS selling better....
by givemeaname - 11/11/08 5:15 PM In reply to: . by jostenmeatthen DVD was at the sametime (age).
Blu Ray players are cheaper then DVD players at the same age. I paid $220 for my last Blu ray player, a samsung 1500 (last month) + I got the matrix trilogy ($75) with it free. My 1st dvd player that I got was in Xmas 1997 was $240 & no free move.
Blu Ray sales # have past the 20 years sales # of laserdiscs.
get your eye checked. I am 28 I can see the diffrences on my 30" WD HD CRT & a big diffrence in my 50" tv. It is that or you need to calibrate your tv!!!!!!!!
I have over 500 dvd's, they ALL play in my samsungbd-p1200 & SamsungBD-p1500.
FIOS.. that's better then cable & DVD, that is if you live in an area that has it!!!!!!!!!! But it is still has Compressed HD video & lacks the HD audio's
Blu-Ray more!
by Disk_Crasher - 11/11/08 6:49 PM In reply to: Blu ray IS selling better.... by givemeanameWell to address the difference in quality viewed, I still stand by there being very little difference in Blu-Ray and DVD on a 40" screen. I did view the screenshots on your referenced links. Yes the quality is outstanding on the Blu-Ray vs the DVD, but I have a hard time believing that there is not something missing in this comparison. (This also proves my 40 year old eyes are not so bad!) I have looked at my own TV with an upsampled DVD and they have never looked as bad as in the examples shown on that page for DVDs. I have never said they were equal, but something smells funny in this comparison.
I ask you the same question, have you read the article I referenced? Don't you feel that Blu-Ray will never penetrate the market before direct distribution through the Internet becomes common?
Like I said already
by jostenmeat - 11/11/08 10:22 PM In reply to: Blu-Ray more! by Disk_Crasherhis screen caps are the most trusted anywhere online that I have ever found.
The trust given to him is absolute by all.
Trust me, a lot of others post screen caps, and they are immediately dismissed. A LOT LOT LOT of folks think that screen caps are the most misleading thing there is.... except in the case of Xylon's.
Now as far as bad looking pic, the bluray suffers identically. Its often said that if a pic doesn't look so great, that in motion certain things will be not noticed so easily. Im not talking about Bluray-only threads, btw.
Don't take my word for it. Go ask them in the AVS forum.
you've been following AV for 20 years? For me its only been 2 years.
There is nothing funny with the comparisons. His caps, again, are the most trusted there are on the world wide web. To the best of knowledge. If you can find better trusted screen caps, please do link it here. I'd love to share with others.
What other AV forums do you visit? Please do tell.
Here's one recent argument over a similar topic. You'll notice I post now and then, but Im not really adding so much. Like you, I obviously don't know a whole lot.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47695
sigh
by jostenmeat - 11/11/08 10:27 PM In reply to: Like I said already by jostenmeatthese arguments are soooooooo pointless.
You should come over to my place sometime. You would poop yer pants if you saw the pic.
You've never seen anything like it. No one has... among anyone I personally know.
This includes a 10 yr employee of Panasonic, and a film director who was just inducted to the Director's Guild this year.
Yeah, big deal, I bought a $300 bluray player, and $3000 projector. A lot of people have posted here who spent as much on their flat panel. Maybe more in fact.
It wouldn't look half as good without native high-definition sources. No, I don't even count TV broadcasts due to the insane compression.
HD vs. BD
by alaskagram - 11/16/08 3:20 PM In reply to: Like I said already by jostenmeatI think what you are missing is it's not hd were talking about it's the delivery medium.I can get a blank dvd for next to nothing compared to a blue ray at $20.00+ a piece.I have a hd camera and abut the only way to practically share is to upload to a suitable site such as Viemo.Just as I-Tunes is changing the way people obtain music content.Converging the computer into the entertainment center is going to have a huge impact on how people obtain source content.Already LG is advertising a dedicated appliance for down loading hd content from the web and others are probably waiting in the wings.So it's not some new physical medium it's a whole new approach.
The missing something is not an equitable comparison.
by ahtoi - 11/12/08 8:54 PM In reply to: Blu-Ray more! by Disk_CrasherWe are comparing jpeg not video and also dvd probably not upconverted. So let you eye be the guide; if you feel it's not worth the extra bucks to you then keep that money in your wallet.
I was one of those that bought a laser disc player at about $600. Now I look back and said what was I doing..must be out of my mind. The reality is I had the money then for such foolishness. I never ask myself if it was worth it or not.
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