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Camcorders: Looking for low light camcorder suggestions
Looking for low light camcorder suggestions
by Leroy2000 - 3/31/09 11:06 PMI'm planning on buying a camcorder in the next couple months and would like some suggestions.
I'm using it to record demolition derbies outdoors. That means it can be dirty, windy, rainy, and DARK. I have gotten by alright with MiniDV in the past. I am aware there is a quality improvement over Hard Disc Drive (HDD) but would take HDD if the quality loss is minimal to unnoticeable. Needs to record Standard Def (SD) in Full Screen 4:3 mode. 8 hrs record time or more. My biggest complaint right now is grainy footage in low light, I'm using a Canon ZR40. Looking for price under $900.
The media
by boya84 - 4/1/09 5:56 AM In reply to: Looking for low light camcorder suggestions by Leroy2000used to capture the data has little impact on the low light behavior. To a small degree, the compression applied to the digital data stream will have an impact. The biggest impact to improvement will be larger lenses and larger imaging chips.
In the consumer camcorder environment, since DV uses the least amount of compression you are sort of already at a good place - but with the improvements in lenses and imaging chips over the last few years, you will see marginal improvement in lowlight performance from newer camcorders. The difference in lense size and imaging chip size will still be the bigger improvement. The difference between what your camcorder has today and what you can get for $800 will be marginal.
The Canon GL2 and Sony DCR-VX2100 have significantly larger lenses and imaging chips than your camcorder has today - but are outside your budget. The Canon HV30 and Sony HDR-HC9 can also record in standard def and may be worth a look - their lenses and chips are a little larger than what you have.
We have had posts here from folks attending auto races and trying to record with HDD camcorders and could not. The prolonged vibration from the engine noise caused the hard drive heads to park and no recording was possible. If you must go non-tape, bypass HDD and go to flash memory like the Canon FS or HF series. But, like I said, the storage media is not the issue when it comes to low light. Note the very few product offerings of built-in non-tape in the prosumer and pro camcorder lines... There are a few - but most I know use an external hard drive that stores DV/HDV, just like the internal tape mechanisms and even then, only when they have to - the preference is still miniDV tape.
and rain and dirt
by boya84 - 4/1/09 1:16 PM In reply to: Looking for low light camcorder suggestions by Leroy2000tell me you want some sort of protection.
Ewa-Marine and PortaBrace make good raincapes and Ewa-Marine makes good flexible bags.
good advice
by Leroy2000 - 4/2/09 10:21 PM In reply to: and rain and dirt by boya84It is good to know that vibration could cause the hard drive to lock. That's the kind of problems I DON'T need with a camcorder. So those two $600-900 models have me kinda interested. It's hard to know without trying it how much of an improvement I would see in low light. I hate to spend the money if its not going to be worth it.
I've always planned ahead in the past. When it rains I cover the camcorder in a garbage bag and leave just a hole for the lens. I electrical tape around the lens and put my head under the bag. The few times I have to do it it works really well. Prob looks silly but works well. I haven't had a moisture problem since my early years of filming.
I'm going to double check the manuals for those 600-900 models to make sure they can indeed do standard def on full screen. So can you use standard or high def miniDV tapes in those? And can you use either type for either recording format? (high def tape for standard def footage and vise versa)
I use the large
by boya84 - 4/3/09 6:00 AM In reply to: good advice by Leroy2000clear zip-lock bags with a corner trimmed and electrical tape - but the camera is stowed in hard rain... and my head's not in the bag. What we'll do for *the* shot...
Good for you for checking the manuals - all HDV cams can do DV (4:3), DV widescreen and HDV (16:9 defined).
Yes, regular miniDV tapes are fine - and in DV mode (SP speed), you can use either camcorder for playback/transfer. In HDV mode the older camcorder cannot deal with that video. You can use the special "high def tapes" for DV or HDV, but it is sort of a waste because there is little improvement for a lot of expense - standard def DV is what it is. I don't re-use tapes. I just use the plain Sony Premium tapes and have been doing HDV for about 3-4 years. Since a single ~$3, 60 minute, miniDV tape can hold up to 63 minutes of HDV - which turns into 44 gig of hard drive space on your computer - it is a cheap archive method to offload the hard drive.
If you decide to make the jump to HDV, we should probably inventory your editing kit to identify any upgrade requirements... I'm afraid once you see what you can get, you'll make the leap and be surprised.
Recording modes
by Leroy2000 - 4/5/09 9:43 PM In reply to: I use the large by boya84The Canon HV20 manual mentions all the recording modes (MXP, FXP, XP+, SP, LP) but the Canon HV20 only has (SP, LP). Are those extra modes for the HV20 (MXP, FXP, XP+) only for use with high def footage? How big of a difference in quality do they record? I will need say 8 or 9 hours available for a long weekend and need to know up front what recording mode I will want to use.
Only two of the recording modes
by boya84 - 4/6/09 3:01 PM In reply to: Recording modes by Leroy2000in your list (MXP, FXP, XP+, SP, LP) apply to the HV20: SP and LP.
The HV20 is a miniDV tape based camcorder that, when in standard definition DV or DV Widescreen mode, SP is default and LP is optional.
So I went through the HV20 manual
http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/0900000649/HV20NIM1-EN.pdf
Refer to page 39 and 101. LP mode is not available for HDV mode. There was no reference to "MXP" in the HV20 manual - I did not bother checking the others.
Since you have already indicated that the environment you plan to capture is a loud audio environment, I hope you are not continuing down the hard disc drive (HG20) path. But it should be noted that whether you are or not, the HG (hard disc drive) and HF (flash memory) series camcorders use the same highly compressed AVCHD file types. I'll stay with the HF20...
http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/4/0300001964/02/hf20-200-nim01-en.pdf
Both the HG20 and HF20 offer 5 recording modes. Refer to page 46 for some information. MXP is highest quality; LP is lowest quality. The other settings are various quality in between. As I understand it, ALL recording modes will be stored in AVCHD file-type "envelopes". This does not necessarily mean they are all "high definition" it just means the single MTS file type is used regardless of the actual video resolution/format. More compression = more record time = reduced video quality.
The table on page 47 provides a look into which modes will fill what space given a certain selected video quality mode. Use the flash memory table and apply that to whatever the internal hard drive can hold...
We've had lots of posts/threads regarding the advantages of miniDV tape storing high definition video more efficiently and more cost effectively than other available consumer storage media, so I won't go down that path again.
With ANY of these camcorders, you will need to get at least one high capacity rechargeable battery (from the manufacturer) unless you have recharge time available between recording sessions - or access to power while you are recording. The battery in the box is not a very long-lasting battery.
Quality wise
by Leroy2000 - 4/6/09 7:47 PM In reply to: Only two of the recording modes by boya84When I mentioned the list of recording modes, I meant the _Canon_HF20_ has (MXP,FXP,XP+,SP,LP). I'm used to recording with SP, so is SP quality going to look the same? How big of an improvement in picture quality would I see by switching to higher quality mode such as XP+, FXP, or MXP?
If I decide to go with the Canon HV20, I will plan to do the same as I always do with my miniDV tapes; record the event, pull off the footage, re-use the tapes. Once I get an ISO I don't need archives anymore. Of course this brings up the question as to how many times the tape can be safely reused? I am using Panasonic Pro 60 min tapes.
I use miniDV tape based camcorders
by boya84 - 4/7/09 5:46 AM In reply to: Quality wise by Leroy2000and hope someone else can answer your first question. I expect the higher quality modes are merely capturing more data... or discarding more data in the compression process. Consider MXP as the highest quality high definition and SP as the equivalent of "standard definition". The others in between are just steps of quality.
Can you video editor and computer handle video data files in the AVCHD (MTS) wrapper?
If you can reuse the tapes today in a miniDV tape based camcorder, you can reuse the tapes tomorrow. How many times do you reuse them today?
Reuse miniDV tapes
by Leroy2000 - 4/7/09 7:44 PM In reply to: I use miniDV tape based camcorders by boya84I have a set of 10 Panasonic Pro tapes and I use the entire set about 3 times a year, and for the last couple of years. The only problem I have is when I end footage, remove the tape, put it in again, and start recording (using the same tape) there will be some purple lines that takes up to a minute to work its way off the screen. You don't see it on the viewfinder but you see it during playback. Rule of thumb I just let the first minute record dead air before recording something useful w/o a problem. Easier than buying new tapes.
I'm not sure what AVCHD is. A quick scan of the manuals show that the HF20 records to flash using AVCHD format, and the HV20 records to miniDV using HDV format. I use Adobe Premiere Elements 3 (PE3) for editing and works great for me. A quick google search finds a discussion about using HDV instead of AVCHD if you use PE3 because AVCHD causes crashes with PE2, PE3, and PE4. I'm an Adobe guy so that would **** me off.
So I'm guessing you're going to recommend the HV20 because my editing software [PE3] will like the video format, without the need for conversion. Am I understanding that correctly?
My computer hardware should be satisfactory; E8400, 4GB RAM, 2TB hard drive.
Like I said,
by boya84 - 4/8/09 5:58 AM In reply to: Reuse miniDV tapes by Leroy2000If you re-use tapes today, then tomorrow reusing tapes is no different. With new tapes I always to about 10 seconds of color bars... I don't re-use tapes.
AVCHD is a relatively new file type for storing video. If the editor can handle AVCHD files (MTS), there be an indication in the manual. Many don't - especially those versions are older than a year or two.
I started recommending miniDV tape in the first reply to your original post. Truth be told, I don't thiink the lenses and imaging chips will do well in a low-light environment, but anything more is outside your budget.
I agree, your computer should be fine - though I don't know how much available space there is on that 2TB drive - and I would suggest keeping video project files on a drive other than the one with the start up system for best response time.
If you stay with DV, then you will see little difference from what you record today. If you make the jump to HDV, there will be several differences - including 63 minute storage time on a 60 minute miniDV tape and when you import to your computer, that 63 minutes will use about 44 gig of hard drive space (not the 14 gig you are used to see being used by DV).
Can you help me?
by jntiniakos - 4/8/09 4:53 PM In reply to: Only two of the recording modes by boya84I noticed that you know a lot about camcorders and I can really use your help. I want to buy a camcorder that can record and play good quality video in low light conditions indoors mostly at night. I bought a Sony Hard disk standard definition and a JVC HHD Standard and both had blurry picture at night inside the house. I will be doing a lot of recording for my kids. Could you tell me which models and brands I can look at and some advice or suggestions? I dont know a lot about camcorders. thank you
The second message
by boya84 - 4/8/09 5:12 PM In reply to: Can you help me? by jntiniakosin this thread seems to address your issue:
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7594_102-0.html?messageID=3015583&tag=forums06;posts#3015583
Consumer cams with lenses smaller than 40mm and imaging chips smaller than 1/3" won't do well in low light.
Your choices are to turn on the lights or get a camcorder with larger lenses and imaging chips.
The reason they are blurry is because the auto-focus does not do well in low light - it does not know what to focus on.
There are people that post regularly to this forum that know more than I do... but thank you for the compliment.
Question...
by jntiniakos - 4/10/09 5:59 PM In reply to: The second message by boya84Hi, I checked out a few camcorders but I'm still not sure. There is the Canon Vixia HV30 (.2 lux minimum illumination, 1/2.7", MiniDV) and Canon Vixia GH20 (.2 lux min.illum., 1/3.2", Hard Drive) and also the Sony HDR-HC9 (5 lux, 1/2.9", MiniDV) and Sony HDR-XR200V (5 lux min. illum., 1/5", Hard Drive). I have no idea what their lens size is. Is 1/3.2" better than 1/2.7" or the opposite? Could you list a few Camcorders you think are the best for low light conditions? Which one do you think is the best and second best when it comes to quality? I would appreciate very much your help. Thank you.
Apologies for the delay...
by boya84 - 4/29/09 6:23 PM In reply to: Question... by jntiniakos1/2.7" is larger (better) than 1/3.2 for the imaging chip(s)... Closer to 1" is bigger/better.
Lower lux is better - but the "minimum" listed by the Canons will be very grainy. The minimums from the Sonys are grainy, too.
As previously indicated, lens smaller than 40mm diameter and imaging chips smaller than 1/3" will not provide very good low light behavior. You need *both*. If the lens is small, it cannot let in enough light for even a large imaging chip. If the imaging chip is tiny, a huge lens won't help much.
If this is your budget range, flip a coin. They will all be about the same image quality. I STRONGLY suggest you stay away from hard disc drive camcorders. If you like that file type (I cannot imagine why), then flash memory. Canon HF series. Sony HDR-CX series. I have already stated the miniDV tape based Canon HV30 or Sony HDR-HC9 are your best bets.
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