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Camcorders: standard definiton vs. cheap hd
standard definiton vs. cheap hd
by dv3 - 8/9/08 7:29 AMi have never owned a camcorder before and i want to know if I am better off with a cheap hd or a average standard definition
here are my top choices:
samsung hmx-10
canon fs-11
sony dcr sr45
....all about the same price price ...what would you buy?
update
by dv3 - 8/9/08 3:44 PM In reply to: standard definiton vs. cheap hd by dv3i am now also looking at the panasonic hdc-sd1 (hd)...that i found for 399 refurbished
any thoughts?
Are you planning to do
by boya84 - 8/9/08 7:06 PM In reply to: standard definiton vs. cheap hd by dv3any editing? On what?
Are you planning to save the video you capture forever or just DVDs of the finished projects?
What are you planning to play the video back on... computer only? Regular DVD? BluRay DVD? standard def TV or HDTV? How do you plan to do the HD playback if you want to watch the finished project in high def - if that is the route you go?
What are you planning to record? Anything with loud audio? Bands (with or without amplification), planes, heavy machinery, big crowds cheering/yelling, vehicle races, other?
Where are you planning to record it? Anything at higher than 9,000 feet?
re
by dv3 - 8/9/08 8:11 PM In reply to: Are you planning to do by boya84decided against the refurbished panasonic
i dont plan on editing but would like the option in the future...but i can pretty much use any software out there if i try
...i plan to use regular dvd with a hdtv ...again i can probably use any software available to format if at all possible
...going to record family stuff and vacations....nothing really loud to speak of
....i live in Colorado and will use it in the mountains but mostly just below 9,000 ft ...but MAY want the option of using it at 14,000 ft depending on the trade off
Well alrighty, then...
by boya84 - 8/10/08 12:38 PM In reply to: re by dv3If you want the option of editing in the future, then you need to go down the path as though you are planning to edit.
Keeping in mind that DVDs use the most compression and digital video compression = discarded data = reduced video quality.
When you fill the hard drive in the hard drive based camcorder, what are you planning to do? If you transfer to DVD using a Direct-to-DVD recorder, you just compressed that video a bunch - that is, you discarded a LOT of video data. You can't get it back. But let's take the path... later, you decide you want to edit - basically, you rip the video from the DVD. Quality, compared to the original, will be a lot less. If you transfer your video to a computer for later editing and let it sit on a hard drive, I suppose that is doable - if you have some big external hard drives for storing that video.
If that DVD you are considering burning to is either a BluRay disc used with a BluRay burner (that can ONLY be played back on a BluRay player) or a single or double layer "regular" DVD that can playback the DVD-encoded VOB files, then I guess that is OK... but remember, there is a reason that BluRay came out. More room. Regular single layer DVDs can hold 4.7 gig or a little less than 120 minutes of standard definition video stored in VOB format. Regular Double layer DVDs can hold 8.5 gig or a little less than 240 minutes of standard definition video stored in VOB format. Playing back standard definition on an HDTV is less than exciting...
I say "a little less than" because the DVD menuing program with a still or video in the background, scene selection, etc... plus sound track will use some space - how much is up to you when you make the DVD. BluRay starts at 25 gig and goes up from there... because high definition uses that much space.
If you want the option of going to 14,000 feet, then hard drive based camcorder fall of your list. This is not my opinion, this is in nearly every HDD based camcorder manual.
If you even think about doing something with your camcorder, then plan that in to your requirements. Because when you go and do whatever that something is but the camcorder was not designed for that and it fails to get that once in a lifetime shot, then no fair claiming, "crappy camcorder".
Hence,
"dont plan on editing but would like the option in the future"... If you were never planning to edit your video, then perhaps a DVD based camcorder might be more appropriate - but you think you might want to and DVD based camcorders are the worst video to edit, so they are not recommended for you.
"MAY want the option of using it at 14,000 ft depending on the trade off"... the trade off is no video capture...
Fill the miniDV tape or memory card; pop it out, put in a blank and keep recording. With the hard drive, fill the hard drive, offload to computer or (or - ick - DVD recorder) then delete files before resuming video capture. Drop the HDD camera and break it, good luck getting the video out of the hard drive - with miniDV tape or flash memory, hopefully you can get the tape out and just pop it in another camcorder - worst case is you lose just that one tape - not hours and hours like the hard drive camcorders can hold...
I'll stick with my recommendation of miniDV tape (best available video quality; no altitude or vibration issues HDD camcorders have) or flash memory (same format as HDD - generally highly compressed MPEG2 - or if high definition, then AVCHD - or as kiddpeat says, "that anemic AVCHD"), but fewer moving parts and no altitude or vibration issues HDD camcorders have) storage media.
re
by dv3 - 8/10/08 1:19 PM In reply to: Well alrighty, then... by boya84i will be backing up all my video on a hard drive ..i also am able to connect my tv to my computer if i buy a longer cable..so i guess if dvd is not a good choice thats what i will do
...as far as going up to 14,000 ft....there isn't alot of action that high up becuase we usally drive to the top of some peak and drive back down ...so if i have to rely on my camera for that it is ok..
...if both camcorders were exactly (except storage) the same i would choose the one with the hard drive ....but am not ruling out other types of storage if the video is better on a camcorder with storage other than a hard drive
can you tell me the difference in video quality between the cheap hd and the standard def camcorders i listed above?
....budget is $400 .....possibly $500 max.
....don,t want a regular dvd camcorder
I regret that I cannot help you
by boya84 - 8/10/08 4:37 PM In reply to: re by dv3with the "difference in video quality between the cheap hd and the standard def camcorders i listed above"... since I would not purchase a Samsung camcorder... Sony or Canon or Panasonic (or Red), but not Samsung. Technically, 720p is "high definition" so it *should* be better than standard definition... and your list includes highly compressed standard definiton so the video quality should be greater... I'm in the 1080i environment...
Standard definition vs high definition
by jimhaleyscomet - 8/11/08 1:59 AM In reply to: I regret that I cannot help you by boya84The difference is dramatic.... especially when you have lots of light (like in outdoors). Long distance landscape shots really shin in HDV (and tend to be blurry in standard definition).
Is it possible to rethink your budget? In the old days we paid well over $1000 and the cameras were not nearly the same video quality. Today we can get HD MiniDV camcorders for just under $1000. Of course any video (ie $500 camera) is better than no video, but if there is anyway to stretch up you will be glad you did. The camcorder manufactures have sacrificed video quality to get the price down. Are you sure you agree with their decision?
If I capture video on standard definition it will always be standard definition. It will always look grainy on bigger TV's. If I capture it on high definition miniDV tape I have much better quality video originals. In the future as the world goes high definition my old home movies will still look great. I can make standard definition DVD's to share now (and for backup) from the HD originals. Later as technology catches up I will be able to make HDV copies to share.
As far as hard drive camcorders. Consumer camcorders often break after a few years. I would not depend on that camcorder hard drive to store video long term.
Storing video on computer hard drives takes a TON of space. Also, when the hard drive crashes you loose ALL your video. If a MiniDV tape messes up at least you only loose one tape.
I am much more comfortable with MiniDV tapes than any other electronic media storage device. MiniDV is very well established (even the pros use it) and cameras capable of playing MiniDV should be around a long time. Note that a High Def camcorder can play a standard definition miniDV.
Jim H
As we stay in that budget range...
by whizkid454 - 8/11/08 5:47 AM In reply to: Standard definition vs high definition by jimhaleyscometThe more important factors are the lens, image sensor and processing engine. As stated before, no compression scheme can increase video quality. But if you start out with the best possible from the lens+sensor, the end result is much more favorable, no matter which format. At this range, most sensors are small and have a tough time of giving satisfactory video, miniDV format included.
The hard drive in the camcorder was not designed to store all of the videos long term. It is simply a temporary storage medium before being archived to DVDs or in other cases, backed up to an external hard drive or two.
Just as a side note: The general consumer is drifting towards non-tape media. It is a fact.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2007-12-02-camcorder_N.htm
I Need Help!!!
by infinito52 - 8/15/08 8:52 PM In reply to: I regret that I cannot help you by boya84I have been preparing to do a documentary for almost a year, after contacting those who will be participating, where and writing the substantive part of the project I am totally lost on what equipment to use. I had a close friend who was going to provide all the techno knowledge and equipment but he is ill. So here I am and I want to do this project, I have spent a year researching and talking with prominent physicians around the country. The problem is, I'm a lawyer and know little about video technology. All I have in the way of equipment is a fairly new Dell XPS400 and another computer very similiar I bought my wife. Can you advise me on the camera I should use, most will be shot indoors however a couple of scenes will be shot in India outdoors. Also, what type of audio equipment, mics and peripheral equipment will I need. In addition, do I need to buy a special computer for editing? I know that I am clueless but I am a fast learner. Someone like yourself could point me in the right direction, and I hope you don't mind me asking but based on what I have told you can you just recommend one good camera or and equipment or two at the most. I am pressed a little on time and my head feels like it is going to explode when I read about different cameras and why each one is the best. Lighting I guess is an issue as is my lack of knowledge. I'm sure I sound a bit like an unchained idiot but in fact I'm not, just did not plan on having to go this alone. Thank you for your consideration. Bobby
I *think* this should be its own thread...
by boya84 - 8/16/08 10:58 AM In reply to: I Need Help!!! by infinito52but since we're here...
As you were planning to have "a close friend who was going to provide all the techno knowledge and equipment", would it be possible to "buy" that techno knowledge instead? This way you don't have to go it alone.
Don't get me wrong, I have every confidence that you are, as you say, "a fast learner", but it is not quite that easy if you want a polished end-product. Your "preparing to do a documentary for almost a year" is quite an investment, and it will be even more between additional planning, travel, capture and editing... I am not a lawyer, but I expect that you would not recommend that I represent myself if I were involved in a major case that had already taken a year of preparation and was expected to take more time, experience and skill... There are videographers for hire and their rate can be negotiated (and they would have the equipment, too). As well, there may be a college or university near you with a film department where the more advanced students - with discussion/recommendation from the professor - might be willing to take on the project. In either case, they would have already worked with various pro-grade cameras and mics, understand lighting, editing issues and other requirements... and may have access to equipment (unless perhaps you want to buy the equipment and "donate" some or all of it to the school when the project is completed).
Since we don't know what the audience for the finished product will be, it is a bit difficult to know exactly what you would need, but the start of MY shopping list - based on what you have said about the project so far - would include:
At least two (in case one breaks while in the field) of the same of the following cameras:
Canon XHA1, Sony HVR-Z1U, Sony HVR-Z7U, Panasonic HDX200B
LANCs (wired remote) for the cameras
High-capacity rechargeable camera batteries (from the camcorder manufacturer) and charger(s)
Two Sennheiser or Audio Technica shotgun mics
Two Sennheiser or Sony (pro grade) wireless lavalieres
Two audio field recorders (like M-Audio, Sony, Edirol, or my favorite, Fostex)
One or two lightweight mic-booms with shockmounts for the shotgun mics and Rycote zeppelins; 3-4 25 foot XLR mic cables
Two pro-grade headphones (Sony or Bose) to monitor audio into the camcorder or into the field recorder
Tripod (Bogen-Manfrotto fluid-head would be on my list)
Two Video light sets with belt battery pack (NRG Research)
LOTS of batteries for the shotgun and lav mics (even though the shotguns can use phantom power)
LOTS of miniDV tape for those camcorder that use miniDV tape - in the case of the Panny, several P2 cards (expensive)
Sturdy cases like those from Pelican or SKB for all this equipment (remember, you are shipping internationally)
So... yes... it would be easy to spend $20,000. Can it be done for less? Yes. For the most part, it depends on what your paranoia level is and how much "insurance" you want to carry with you. Having a second set also lets you capture the same shot from multiple angles. If you opt for the single set of equipment, you may be lucky and get away with getting one camera, one shotgun mic, one field recorder, one set of headphones - which also reduces the case requirement... So down to about $12,000. Not recommended but technically possible: Use a consumer grade camcorders like a Canon HV30 or Sony HDR-HC9 (you will want to add in an XLR converter or two).
For the indoor shots, do you control the lighting or is this "natural" and "shoot and run"? If you control the lighting, there are lots of variables to consider so making a list is a challenge. The reason why the pro-grade cams are strongly recommended is their bigger lenses and bigger imaging chips provide much better low-light video capture characteristics.
Nice to have:
SpiderBrace or other shoulder-mount steadying device or a monopod or Hand-held "SteadiCam" or "GlideCam" device
A 8.5" to 17" monitor. This will allow people to see what the DP (Director of Photography) sees though the lens but not get in the way. This also allows review of the day's shots - especially since you'll be in PAL country - NTSC cams from North America don't get along well with PAL monitors. If you get a crane, you will absolutely need a monitor for the DP to use.
Nice to have - but depends on the shot:
Camera crane (like a Kessler)
Camera dolly (with or without a track - again, depends on the shot)
Then editing... A "fairly new Dell XPS400" should have decent CPU horsepower to do the editing
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xps_400?c=us&cs=28&l=en&s=dfb
MiniDV tape based camcorders use firewire for video transfer. So you will need to add a firewire400 port using one of those available expansion slots.
Editing, as with videography, is best with someone with experience... but Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere normally float to the top. I suggest adding a minimum of a 500 gig drive (internal or external) just for the video project work files.
GOOD LUCK!
UHHHHH OK
by infinito52 - 8/16/08 5:06 PM In reply to: I *think* this should be its own thread... by boya84I think that I might want to make an appointment to see if perhaps I am bi-polar to have wanted to take on a project of this magnitude. Also this causes me to pause for reflection about why I was held back in the first grade. My priest once referred to me as an unchained idiot, it is only now that I am beginning to digest his meaning.
I am in the Houston area and your recommendation with respect to having those who know what they are doing unlike myself sounds much more viable. Honestly, I didn't understand a lot of your recommendations although I that is what I asked you for. You would think that I could come up with an idea of hiring this done on my own, but I never thought of it. It was a very fortunate event for me to have been afforded the opportunity to meet you. In addition, your kindness in expending so much time and energy responding. I do hope that I am in a position at some point to recipricate the favor. You certainly know your stuff and are extremely competent. I have a background in Bio-Chemistry and Physics, one of my subjects for the documentary is a MIT Professor in Molecular Biology. So I sometimes feel that there really isn't much I can't learn, however I do recognize my limitations and the techology you speak of is extremely intimidating to me. Even if I did have the time to learn, I doubt seriously I could ever matriculate the knowledge required to pull this off. So I am going to defer to your first recommendation. I do hope that it does not cost the national debt, but I see no other options. Again, your kindness is greatly appreciated and I wish you God's Peace. Bobby
My only other suggestion
by boya84 - 8/16/08 5:48 PM In reply to: UHHHHH OK by infinito52to help save you some $ would be to have the whole thing scripted as much as possible. This does not mean that you you have someone speak the script, but it does mean that you will
1) have a flow of the documentary - that is, the opening, titles, and description of the work at a high level;
2) translate that flow (or outline) into a "storyboard" that shows what each scene depicts;
3) turn that storyboard into a shot-list... This way you can shoot scenes out of order, but if you stick to your plan, you will have what you need without having to go back and get it... Returning to India to shoot a couple of minutes of video because you missed it the first time would be a HUGE (and expensive) bummer.
The more you plan in advance and write stuff down coherently, so that someone else can use those instructions as a "recipe", will go a long way toward a successful project. You *could* "run and shoot" and build your documentary around what useful video you did get... but I don't think it will be as polished.
Successful video projects - like any other large scale event - is merely an exercise in project management (combined with a video/lighting/artistic skillset). Successful project management is ALL about documentation and good communication with the participants.
If you have a high-level theme, then you have the start. Add some detail and you have the outline. Add more detail and you can get the storyboards done... more detail with a bit of sorting gets you to the shot list.
Baby steps, small bites and knowing when you need help will get you there. Frankly, I think you CAN do this. But not by yourself, and not tomorrow... and the good news is, you don't have to go it alone, and I suspect this need not be done tomorrow...
The irony is, capture and edit are the easy steps if you spend a good amount of time on the hard part: getting that which is in your minds-eye on paper. Spend less effort on the up-front piece and expect the down-stream steps to be problematic.
If in Houston here are a couple of places that can help.
by jimhaleyscomet - 8/17/08 3:58 AM In reply to: UHHHHH OK by infinito52Since you are in Houston you might consider a call to the following two places.
http://www.decidio.com/local-businesses/v-57-videographers/texas/Sugar+Land/sweetwater-video-productions-inc-49774.html
I worked with Dale and he is top notch.
If you decide the "do it yourself" approach, there is a good professional videography supply place in SugarLand or Stafford. Unfortunately I can't remember the name. Dale will know of whom I speak.
One other thing to think about.
by Kiddpeat - 8/17/08 6:30 AM In reply to: UHHHHH OK by infinito52I believe you mentioned that you have spent some time interviewing people. It would be nice if those interviews were already on video tape. Before you do more, you might want to have a plan for shooting the documentary and a videographer in place.
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