Buzz Out Loud Lounge: 4th amendment and email
4th amendment and email
by Nicholas Buenk - 10/30/09 10:43 PMAs this was discussed in BOL 1096.
4th amendment says "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Tom was arguing that it doesn't apply to email because email is not in your home. But I don't think that's a very sensible interpretation. "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects" it's a list of things that the amendment applies to, it's certainly not saying though that the object must be all the above.
And I certainly think email should apply under 'papers and effects'. The ISP could just as easily be holding physical papers of your letters, and 4th amendment would certainly prevent the government from searching them. It should apply to email too, which at minimum applies as your effects.
Try simple.
by R. Proffitt
- 11/2/09 6:15 AM
In reply to: 4th amendment and email by Nicholas Buenk
Think of email as just a little less secure than a postcard in the mail.
Then you'll be fine.
4th ammendment and email
by meseptiamus - 11/2/09 7:44 AM In reply to: 4th amendment and email by Nicholas BuenkAlthough I am not a constitutional attorney I did do law enforcement for a few years. Classes on the 4th amendment were necessary so LE knows what they can and cannot do. Done with the resume now to info.
First I would like to point out that Tom made it seam like you only had 4th ammendment rights in your home. I realize the original slash dot article (which was a quote of another article) made it seem that way. This is not true, enough said.
Turns out the original poster has a new post changing the story.
http://volokh.com/2009/10/29/opinion-on-fourth-amendment-and-e-mail/
Here is a quote from the above blog post.
"In the course of re-reading the opinion to post it, I recognized that I was misreading a key part of the opinion. As I read it now, Judge Mosman does not conclude that e-mails are not protected by the Fourth Amendment. Rather, he assumes for the sake of argument that the e-mails are protected (see bottom of page 12), but then concludes that the third party context negates an argument for Fourth Amendment notice to the subscribers. I missed this because the reasoning closely resembles the argument for saying that the Fourth Amendment doesn’t apply at all, and I didn’t read the earlier section closely enough. That’s obviously a much narrower position, and I apologize for misunderstanding it the first time in the quick skim I gave it. Sorry about that: The fault is entirely mine."
hmmm..."effects"...
by shmody - 11/2/09 10:21 AM In reply to: 4th amendment and email by Nicholas Buenkhmmm..."effects"...
Yeah, I would think that electronic form of paper would include e-mail, however perhaps you never intended e-mail to exist on paper as a primary source or at all. Still, I would thing a lot of things falls under "effects" - letters, notes, etc. I do wonder what if intellectual property falls under effects...
--S
How about this?
by Slikkster - 11/4/09 4:52 AM In reply to: hmmm..."effects"... by shmodyCould a company you work for open up a personal letter you've written if it's on company stationery? They sure can with email. My company doesn't even distinguish between the company email account and personal email. Their position is that if its via their computers and servers, it's fair game to look at (not that they are, mind you).
Would the same permissions be granted to a company to confiscate and peek into personal correspondence you've written while at work? Yet again, another distinction of the differences in personal protections.
i dunno would they?
by robstak - 11/15/09 7:37 AM In reply to: How about this? by Slikkstersrsly i dont know the answer to that lol. can your company open company snail mail??
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