Buzz Out Loud Lounge: What's the big deal about Safari push?
What's the big deal about Safari push?
by Philomorph - 4/9/08 8:26 AMI never thought I'd find myself defending Apple, but I don't exactly understand all the hullabaloo about the pushed Safari install.
I especially think that comparing Safari to a trojan as Tom did in BOL 697 is overstating the case a bit. After all, when you run the updater it lists everything it's going to install with a checkbox next to it that you can toggle off.
Having it default to selected is a bit shady I suppose, but it's not like they are hiding it from you, or making it hard to uninstall. I don't think it even changes your default browser association, so unless you decide to click that new icon on your desktop, you aren't any less safe than before. You just have a bit less disk space.
And in this world of pervasive spy ware and toolbars, it seems to me that everyone who is upset about this should know better than to blindly take an installer's default options. And anyone who is likely to not know better won't ever run Safari anyway because they only use IE.
I don't think this is any worse than what a hundred other vendors do all the time.
My problem is...
by paintguru - 4/9/08 9:26 AM In reply to: What's the big deal about Safari push? by Philomorph...that even if I uncheck it, it will come back in a few days and ask me again. I really don't have a major problem with it showing up once (default unselected), but to keep asking me about it is ridiculous.
That is annoying
by Philomorph - 4/9/08 9:49 AM In reply to: My problem is... by paintguruAhh ok that would be pretty annoying. I've only been asked once since I usually say no to every other iTunes update anyway. As mentioned, every time you install a new version of Flash it wants to install the Google toolbar, so I guess that's the new paradigm.
Ditto
by Owyn - 4/9/08 9:55 AM In reply to: My problem is... by paintguruMy browser of choice is FF with my personal choice of extensions. Safari may be the best of the basic browser's available today, but, it will not meet my needs.
Fanboy alert!
by Slikkster - 4/9/08 10:24 AM In reply to: What's the big deal about Safari push? by PhilomorphJazzin' ya about the fanboy alert (I think, lol), but let's take it from the standpoint of what a reasonable person could "assume".
I think a reasonable person would assume that when a so-called update comes --FOR PROGRAMS PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE-- that it would be fairly common for people to just click the OK button in the same way that they would normally just click OK whenever a EULA is presented. I'm sure you follow that routine with EULA's, unless you're out of the ordinary.
I also think a reasonable person would assume that Apple made this Safari package part of the default update intentionally. It was no accident.
Here's why this is important for me: Apple is constantly presented (by themselves and others) as the "anti-Microsoft", kind of like a "good vs. evil" type of characterization. They're the company of goodness and light, while MS is simply out to hose everyone with their bloated and non-standards software.
This decision by Apple shows me that this characterization is phoney. There are many ways they could have gently asked users if they wouldn't mind trying Safari, rather than trying to sneak it in during a program update. That's lame. They could have easily had a popup of sorts talking up Safari and asking if a user wanted it, for example.
So far as I know, they haven't admitted their actions here were wrong. If they have, I stand corrected. It's funny how a seemingly simple thing like this can generate bad press, and bad precedent. I'm surprised Apple didn't grasp this in advance.
non-issue
by Philomorph - 4/9/08 11:01 AM In reply to: Fanboy alert! by SlikksterDefinitely not a fanboy! Never owned a Mac, probably never will.
Anyway, I think our definitions of "reasonable" are similar, although I feel like most people who use computers regularly should know the difference between a EULA box with pages of dense text and a list of two items with checkboxes next to them.
But my point is that the people who read these forums, listen to BOL, and also have half a brain should know better than to accept all the default options on an installer without even looking at what components are selected.
And the people who don't look before they click aren't going to end up running Safari anyway unless it’s by accident.
To me this decision by Apple is annoying, but no more so than toolbar installers or Windows still trying to get me to update to Media Player 10.
I think only fanboy haters (haters of fanboys), who sit waiting for Apple to stumble so they can “prove” they aren't as “holier than thou” as they act, are really annoyed by this, with maybe a bit of schadenfreude thrown in.
You seem to live in an insular world
by Slikkster - 4/9/08 2:06 PM In reply to: non-issue by PhilomorphWhen I say "reasonable person", I'm talking about your mom and pop, or anyone's moms and pops. A very miniscule portion of the computer-using population is well-versed in such matters.
The question then becomes, "what would moms and pops do" when presented with this (or similar) updater? You know the answer to that, more often than not, is "hmmm, I guess I need this..."
So, come on. It shouldn't be done by any company. It's a "big deal" because it's done by a company that oft times is framed in some kind of elite way. If Microsoft had done this, it would just be more grist for the "I hate MS" mill that exists far beyond what it should.
Since this is the almighty Apple committing this faux pax, that's another story. It's all about expectations. Personally, I'm glad they did it, and I USE Apple products (Ipod and a G5). They do need a comeuppance. And this one's deserved.
No...
by Nicholas Buenk - 4/9/08 9:21 PM In reply to: Fanboy alert! by SlikksterFanboys are supposed to criticise their favourite company when it does bad, to keep it as good as it is.
Watch this... should explain things.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x44l1c_macheads-the-movie-trailer_tech
Exactly it IS as bad as the million other vendors...
by robstak - 4/9/08 11:15 AM In reply to: What's the big deal about Safari push? by Philomorphthat makes two points:
1) We hate that everyone does it.
2) We thought Apple was better than that.
Also, to make the point that "well if you install it and don't use it, no biggie."
NAY, KIND SIR! for the following reasons: mostly it's the principle of the matter; it's deceptive to luddites. Also, it's a slippery slope and a potentially dangerous precedent.
not trying to be an alarmist, I just think it's rude of apple, a company that purports an image of cleanliness.
-dr. karl
It's the subterfuge
by Renegade Knight - 4/9/08 11:41 AM In reply to: What's the big deal about Safari push? by PhilomorphWhen I install some apps I have to be careful to uncheck the "install google toolbar" and other crapware they foist off.
Same as when I have to check or uncheck or click a link to a separate page when buying something to get on or off the mail list.
The problem isn't the offer to install something. It's the trickery used in the process.
Every now and then I get an email from a website I did business with that says "you opted into our newsletter" Um..no I didn't I merly missed whatever tricky hoop you wanted me to jump through to opt out.
Its bad form and it will come back to haunt them
by minimalist - 4/9/08 6:07 PM In reply to: It's the subterfuge by Renegade Knightand it will come back to haunt Apple if they continue down this road of sleazy tactics
Yes, tons of other companies do the exact same thing with tricky installers. I can even understand why they do it. It still does not make it a good business decision for Apple to emulate these companies. This is especially true given the extra scrutiny Apple seems to attract.
It is true that Apple is being singled out for something that is pervasive across the industry. But what else is new? Apple products attract more press than other companies and with the good comes the bad (notice how the iPhone gets skewered for being locked to a carrier.... something that has been an industry standard in the US for the last 10 years). Apple needs to anticipate these kind of backlashes and act smartly, regardless of what other companies do.
One of the reasons I love to use Apple products is that I don't feel like I am being swindled by bottom feeders who have cut their margins so low that they have to resort to slimy techniques and trickery. I hope Apple learns from this mistake and takes the high road in the future.
SOLUTION
by pmbailey - 4/9/08 1:32 PM In reply to: What's the big deal about Safari push? by PhilomorphOk, I know the whole Safari thing is annoying, but here's what to do to stop it from bugging you so we can all move on:
1) Open Apple Software Update (or wait for it to pop up)
2) Check the box by Safari
3) Click on Tools -> Ignore Selected Updates
4) Click Quit
It shouldn't pop up asking you to install Safari anymore --- even if you haven't installed it.
Love the show,
Patrick
yay solutions!
by Philomorph - 4/9/08 2:18 PM In reply to: SOLUTION by pmbaileyThanks pm for the solution.
As for my mom and pop, they only click four icons on their desktop (Outlook, IE, Word, and TurboTax), and if a mysterious one called "Safari" showed up, they would ignore it, assuming it was something I used when visiting. Same with my in-laws.
In my experience there are two types of computer users (outside the computer industry): The curious and the incurious. The curious pay attention and read stuff before clicking it and click random stuff to see what happens.
The incurious don't read unless they have to, and they don't click things unless they know what to expect already. Most "regular" folks fall into the second category and despite the principle of the thing, having one more app among a hundred that they don't use causes them no real harm. No judgment on either type of user, btw. My folks are of this sort.
Anyway, not to beat a dead horse beyond recognition, but if anyone listening to BOL is unjaded enough to even pay attention to Apple's pretentious marketing, I've got a really great plot of land in Florida to sell you.
That image is for the incurious who aren't harmed by this any more than they are by every other company that markets themselves as better, smarter, cooler, or nicer than everyone else.
There's a third group
by milkky - 4/10/08 6:43 AM In reply to: yay solutions! by PhilomorphThat's the people who think they know what they're talking about and are just plain wrong, whether from out-of-control ego or from just plain honest misunderstanding. Surely you've run into some of them! They tend to be the loudest and, some days, I'm not sure but what they are the greatest numbers.
Just having an app installed can be dangerous.
by Metalchurch98 - 4/10/08 7:26 AM In reply to: yay solutions! by PhilomorphWho knows what handlers Safari installed in the registry, which would allow its code to be called by for example a specifically crafted URL. I find it annoying enough when Apple decided to use quicktime to take over PNG viewing in Internet Explorer, resulting in the picture taking 10 times longer to load and being useless for anything else, or Quicktime taking over listening to mp3's on the web (with quicktime being so buggy thats actually very very dangerous). Maybe Safari is set up to handle specific file-types or protocols, which may be launched by a crafty hacker and compromise your machine.
The recent PWN2OWN competition showed 2 things 1) Safari is dangerously buggy and 2) 3rd party apps also compromise your machine, as flash did in Vista.
In short, Apple placing Safari's code and registry entries on your parent's computer actually does compromise their safety.
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